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Impossible coin sequences?

I prefer to start with 2^100 coins, flip them all then see aside all the tails.

Repeat with the remaining coins 99 times.

Stats and probability was never my strong suit, but isn't this a different scenario?

In the first you're tossing the coins 100 times, analysing the results and then starting again from the beginning. In the scenario you're describing you're keeping the hits and discarding the misses. You wouldn't need 2100 coins in your example, as you should get the result you're after much sooner.

Or, to make an analogy, the example in the thread can be seen to be a fruit machine with 100 wheels, each of which have an equal number of a choice of 2 different symbols on them. You pull the arm of the bandit, look at what you've got and, if you've not got all the wheels on the same symbol, you pull the lever again and all the wheels spin again. In your scenario you're doing the equivalent of pulling the arm, seeing which wheels have the symbols you're after, pressing the "hold" button, and only re-spinning the wheels that don't have the symbol you're after. In the first scenario, a wheel that came up a head can become a tail in the next pull, in your scenario once you're a Jet you're a Jet all the way, from your first cigarette to your last dying day.

Far easier to get the result you're after in your scenario. I'd have thought you'd only need a fraction of those 2100 coins.

And that's leaving aside the fact that you're making many tosses at once. If you really did toss 2100 coins it'd be very unusual not to have at least 100 be heads.
 
Where I get into trouble is with seeing the 100 coin tosses as a 'sample' of coin tosses. A small sample of anything is more likely to depart from chance expectations than a large sample. If the coin has 50/50 chance of landing heads and tails then you would expect that a small sample of tosses is more likely to depart from 50/50 heads/tails overall than a large sample. So surely the probability of getting 70% heads or tails rather than 50% is more likely with 10 tosses than with 100. If 50/50 is predicted by chance alone (the null hypothesis), then any departure from chance expectations becomes less likely to occur when the null is true as the sample size gets bigger. So how is it that a sequence containing 100 heads can be just as probable as a sequence containing 50/50 heads and tails? Perhaps I am confusing the concepts of sequence and sample here but I have trouble distinguishing them in my mind.

With regard to the highlighted sentence, if you're willing to accept ANY sequence which is 50/50, it can't. If you're insisting on a specific 50/50 sequence, then each specific outcome is just as likely as another.

Think of it as a huge binary tree. You start with one flip, which can be either heads or tails. From that branch on the tree, you flip again, and get another result which can be either heads or tails.

Code:
          ?
     /         \
    H           T
  /    \      /    \
 HH    HT    TH    TT

Of the 4 possible results, one is "all heads", one is "all tails", and two are 50/50. But each result was one path down the tree, so each of the specific sequences has a 1/4 chance of being the result you arrive at.

At the end of four flips, you have sixteen possible outcomes:

Sequence | Heads | Tails
HHHH| 4 | 0
HHHT| 3 | 1
HHTH| 3 | 1
HHTT| 2 | 2
HTHH| 3 | 1
HTHT| 2 | 2
HTTH| 2| 2
HTTT| 1 | 3
THHH| 3 | 1
THHT| 2 | 2
THTH| 2 | 2
THTT| 1 | 3
TTHH| 2 | 2
TTHT| 1| 3
TTTH| 1 | 3
TTTT| 0| 4

Only one outcome is "all heads". 4 outcomes are 3 heads. 6 outcomes are 2 heads (50/50). 4 outcomes are 1 head. One outcome is no heads.

The most common outcome is a 50/50 split. The actual sequence which led to each of those outcomes still has only a 1/16 chance of happening. Each time you add another flip, the number of unique sequences doubles, but the class of sequences which split 50/50 will always be more common.
 
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Once every 1.27 * 10^30 tries, so not impossible.

And about bowling, I would bet that there are far more 300 games than 291 games.
So a score of 300 is not the least likely score.
 
And about bowling, I would bet that there are far more 300 games than 291 games.
So a score of 300 is not the least likely score.

Bear in mind that bowling is a game of skill, not of chance, so "least likely" isn't really a meaningful concept.
 
Yes, obviously it is a game of skill, but still there will be a distribution of scores, so there is still a likelyness for a conceivable score.

For bowling, a bowler who has the skill necessary to bowl 11 consecutive strikes, would be highly unlikely to nail one pin with his twelfth ball, any other number of pins would be more likely, and the only way to score 291 is 11 strikes and then one pin with the twelfth ball.

I think if I could find PBA statisitics, 300 scores would be far more common than 291.

Maybe you are wrong for once, I always like your posts.
 
Thanks, Alan, for starting the thread.

It's nearly midnight here, way past my bedtime, and I have appointments in the big city tomorrow, so I have to do a drive-by (sorry, Sol) but I now have this thread on my subscription list.

First I'll say that I have no objections to the stats regarding the range of possible outcomes of a system which produces all mathematically possible configurations of T/H for a given series length.

As far as the gambler's fallacy, just to give a kind of preamble to my way of thinking, let's rephrase it this way....

Suppose you're betting on a run of 100,000 fair coin tosses that has already occurred. At random, the result of 50,000 of those tosses are revealed. In fact, the most likely would be a combination of both being unlikely, though the latter far more the bulk, perhaps to statistical insignificance on the former.

As it turns out, 75% of the revealed results are heads, and only 25% are tails.

What odds are you willing to take that the remaining 50,000 will be evenly split among heads and tails? Would you accept even money on a bet that 25,000 (+/- 2,500) of the unrevealed flips ended up heads? Or would you be inclined to bet that the majority of the unrevealed flips were tails?

In other words, would you bet that the one-off event (the revealing of a random selection of results) was the abberation, or would you bet that the extended series of events resulted in a significant abberation?

Fascinating question.

Which is less likely, that 100,000 truly random flips resulted in 75% heads, or that a random, roughly 50/50 split of 100,000, choose 50,000 results in 3/4 heads?

Haven't run the numbers, but I'm guessing the latter if far more likely, even if it is extremely unlikely itself.
 
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What I'd like to know is if he thinks short streaks (of say ten heads) are less common than predicted by theory, or if it's only extremely long streaks that are less common, and if the latter how he came to that knowledge.

Just thought I'd quote this because it's important.

"Impossible" is much stronger than simply "hasn't ever happened yet."

What further evidence do you (Piggy) have for the position that a run of 100 heads is impossible, besides the fact that you've never observed one? That you've never observed such a run is hardly evidence that its probability is less than 1 in 2100, because if that were its probability, you'd be very unlikely ever to have observed one anyway.
 
This brings up a very common confusion about the subtle nature of what it means to call something improbable. The vast majority of things that occur are astoundingly improbable. Every rain drop that falls follows a precise path that was outrageously unlikely to be followed by a raindrop before it was. Showing that an event is improbable, no matter how improbable, is not sufficient to show that it could not have occurred by chance.
 
Thanks, Alan, for starting the thread.

It's nearly midnight here, way past my bedtime, and I have appointments in the big city tomorrow, so I have to do a drive-by (sorry, Sol) but I now have this thread on my subscription list.

First I'll say that I have no objections to the stats regarding the range of possible outcomes of a system which produces all mathematically possible configurations of T/H for a given series length.

As far as the gambler's fallacy, just to give a kind of preamble to my way of thinking, let's rephrase it this way....

Suppose you're betting on a run of 100,000 fair coin tosses that has already occurred. At random, the result of 50,000 of those tosses are revealed.

As it turns out, 75% of the revealed results are heads, and only 25% are tails.

What odds are you willing to take that the remaining 50,000 will be evenly split among heads and tails? Would you accept even money on a bet that 25,000 (+/- 2,500) of the unrevealed flips ended up heads? Or would you be inclined to bet that the majority of the unrevealed flips were tails?

In other words, would you bet that the one-off event (the revealing of a random selection of results) was the abberation, or would you bet that the extended series of events resulted in a significant abberation?

Fascinating question.

Which is less likely, that 100,000 truly random flips resulted in 75% heads, or that a random, roughly 50/50 split of 100,000, choose 50,000 results in 3/4 heads?

Haven't run the numbers, but I'm guessing the latter if far more likely, even if it is extremely unlikely itself.

Those are different questions. Your numbers are also off w.r.t. Piggy's question.

Essentially, Piggy is asking to assess the success probability of a single coin flip based on the outcome of the revealed flips. Your last question is not. It helps to put things in formulas.

In order to rigorously do so, I first want to tackle the words "at random". As I read it, Piggy's intention is that the decision which coin flips are revealed is taken independently of the flips, without knowledge of the outcome. Why not even state it then a bit stronger: the random sample is determined before the flips are actually executed, or simply: the first 50,000 flips are revealed.

Each coin flip is an independent Bernouilli trial with a probability p it results in heads. Define further the three stochasts:
H1 = number of heads in 50,000 revealed trials
H2 = number of heads in 50,000 non-revealed trials
H = H1 + H2
As each coin flip is an independent trial, and H1 and H2 are based on different trials, we can also conclude that H1 and H2 are independent. They both have a binomial distribution, as has their sum H.

Piggy asks for the probability of H2, based on the outcome of H1. In other words:
[latex]$$P[H_2 = 25000 | H_1 = 37500]$$[/latex]
But as these two stochasts are independent, this is equal to asking
P[H2 = 25000]
The formulas for binomial distribution say this is equal to
[latex]$$P[H_2 = 25000] = \binom{50000}{25000} p^{25000} (1-p)^{25000}$$[/latex]

Then your two scenarios. In the first, you ask for the probability that 75% of all flips are heads. Note that in Piggy's scenario, he only posits 75% heads in the revealed half and wants us to bet on 50% heads in the other half; that would mean only 62.5% of all flips being heads. Anyway, to put it in a formula, again, is simple:
[latex]$$P[H = 75000] = \binom{100000}{75000} p^{75000} (1-p)^{25000}$$[/latex]

And your second scenario is: what is the probability that - while all flips are for 50% heads - the random sample reveals 75% heads. That's more like Piggy's question, but again, it is different. Your question is:
[latex]$$P[H_1 = 37500 | H_1 + H_2 = 50000]$$[/latex]
and if you look at the bottom of the Mathworld page I linked to, this results in the formula
[latex]$$\frac{ \binom{50000}{37500} \binom{50000}{12500} }{\binom{100000}{50000}}$$[/latex]

That last formula, as you may note, does not contain p. It is independent of how fair or skewed a coin flip is - while Piggy's scenario and your first scenario are heavily dependent on the value of p. So your second scenario is simply a different one than Piggy posited.

That also means you can't answer your own question, which of your two scenarios is more likely, as it depends on the value of p you assume. You can't just "run the numbers".

Finally, one might say I threw out the "roughly" part. And the last formula gets butt-ugly and re-introduces p as a variable when you introduce a possible spread in the results.

Firstly, how much is "roughly" exactly - you didn't specify, and without it you can't calculate it. :rolleyes: But even if we assume that "roughly" meant the same deviation from 50% as in Piggy's scenario, the formulas show that you're asking a different question - if it had been the same question, the formulas would have been the same in the limit case of "no deviation at all".
 
Why? 10 heads is just as likely as any other sequence he could have flipped. :D

Despite the smilie, I'm still gonna answer this seriously :)

1) 10 heads is as likely as any other specific sequence, if you're doing fair coin flipping. For a broad class of non-fair coin flipping (producing heads more often than tails), 10 heads is more likely than any other specific sequence. If the person suspects that the coin flipping may not be fair, this test (and other, more sophisticated ones) can be meaningfully used to check for particular suspected modes of non-randomness, with increasing confidence levels for longer runs.

But that is the topic of the parent thread. This thread is about allegedly impossible results of fair coin flipping.

2) If the person believes the coin flipping is fair and suspects some problems with reality, the specific sequence is not as important as being able to predict events that should be random and therefore unpredictable. That is the real indication that something fishy is going on. Having a random process only ever produce a single outcome out of several is just a lazy man's way of being able to predict the future; there are many others.
 
I'm confident I could build a machine that would toss a fair coin in such a way that 100 heads in a row (or any other predefined sequence) would occur with very high probability.
 
I'm confident I could build a machine that would toss a fair coin in such a way that 100 heads in a row (or any other predefined sequence) would occur with very high probability.

If you are allowed to flip it in such a way that it doesn't rise very high or spin many times before landing, and lands on soft sand or some other material which prevents it from bouncing, perhaps.

If you are required to make it rise at least two feet in the air, spin in the air at least ten times, and land on a hard surface which is likely to cause it to bounce, I'm confident you could not.
 
If you are allowed to flip it in such a way that it doesn't rise very high or spin many times before landing, and lands on soft sand or some other material which prevents it from bouncing, perhaps.

If you are required to make it rise at least two feet in the air, spin in the air at least ten times, and land on a hard surface which is likely to cause it to bounce, I'm confident you could not.

Which would mean that the machine itself was introducing the unfairness in to the tosses.

Right. There's nothing innate about a fair coin which prevents it from producing *any* particular sequence.

So my question for Piggy is this:

What are the characteristics of coin tossing systems which would prevent (or at least bias against) a fair coin from producing 100 heads in a row compared to any other sequence of heads or tails?
 
I'm confident I could build a machine that would toss a fair coin in such a way that 100 heads in a row (or any other predefined sequence) would occur with very high probability.

Persi Diaconis beat you to it, I'm afraid.
 
Consider a coin. It doesn't have even have to be fair. We just require that, when flipped, getting heads is possible and getting tails is possible. So, no two-headed coins or two-tailed coins.

If flips of the coin are independent---that is, the result of each flip has no effect on the result of subsequent flips---then every sequence of 100 outcomes is possible, including 100 heads in a row.

So, if you believe that, in the real world, 100 heads in a row are impossible, you must also believe that some mechanism exists, in the real world, which alters the probablility of heads on each flip based on the results of previous flips.

Could be, but it seems simpler to assume no such mechanism, in the absence of evidence for one.

The mathematical model which predicts that the probability of getting 100 heads in a row is 1 in 2100, and not zero, assumes the most "variability and volatility" possible, to use your words. (I think the technical term is "entropy".) Ruling out certain sequences as impossible requires the world to be less random, not more. The mathematical model doesn't require any special mechanism to cause the coin to "run through all possible configurations". That they're possible is all that's needed for them eventually to occur.
 
What are the characteristics of coin tossing systems which would prevent (or at least bias against) a fair coin from producing 100 heads in a row compared to any other sequence of heads or tails?

No, you're right, it can't be the one and do the other at the same time.

Realized that while replying.

I was thinking that if we had a system that showed human-scale random behavior -- that is, if we agreed it was random, or "fair" -- then by definition it would show roughly an even number of each of the two possible end-states at a sufficiently large scale of results (otherwise it's biased).

So if we were to record each incident of an end-state (say, heads gets a red dot and tails gets a blue dot) then as long as we have a large enough pool of results, we'll see about an equal mix of red and blue dots in an arrangement on a string.

We're essentially using the coin as a measuring device (since we're not deciding anything based on the toss) that we dip into the system, reset, and dip in again, like taking the pressure on a tire with a tire gauge.

If you're using something like Diaconis's device, your results-space will be a solid color if all coins go in with the same side up, and it will be an irregular mix if the coins' starting orientations are randomized.

You could put a switch on the Diaconis machine to change the result of the flip, and use that with all-heads or -tails starting positions to create regular patterns of results.

But for a system that makes fair tosses, once randomness became evident, you'd have an irregular pattern with roughly equal portions of red and blue.

(Which is what makes all-reds or -blues different from the entire large set of patterns that are irregular and roughly equal, not just different from any one of them.)

So how large do clusters of red and blue get in this system? How large could they possibly get?

Well, the largest cluster of red or blue dots must contain less than half the number of measurements (flips) because there's as much red as there is blue on our chart. And it can't be half, because that would be the results-space from a system that is regular (2 red and blue hemistrings) or biased (nearly equal hemistrings, maybe with some foam in between), not random.

The largest cluster also can't be 1, because that would make the system perfectly regular like a metronome, which we know it's not.

So the largest cluster in a FCTS should be somewhere above 1 and somewhere below half the number of flips required for randomness to become sustainably evident.

If randomness always emerges by 200 flips or less -- if you can always detect randomness by that point -- then I'd have to be right that runs of 100 are impossible in a FCTS.

Well, maybe that's ok if you have some way of knowing the range of randomness your system can produce, but coin-flipping is open-ended, a potentially infinite string.

It could be that the results-space of human coin flipping is like a 2-D version of our universe, with vast expanses of weak noise and spots of enormous clumping which are gigantic relative to the bits of stuff that make them up but extremely small and slender relative to the space they inhabit.

Entering the current universe at a random point, even billions of times, you're not likely to land on one of the truly big clumps.

So we can agree that our system's fair, but if the results-space really is infinite, then you can't say anything about the size of the biggest clump, since your small-scale randomness, as representative of the entire system as it may be, could be right up next to a Jupiter of results that you haven't quite gotten to yet.

Which brings it down to the question of whether your physical set-up produces that kind of results-space or not.

For example, if you put a direction detector in a turbulent chamber and used it to print a ribbon by coordinating its direction with a color wheel, you'd get a random variation of colors streaming from the machine.

At the same time, there'd be a limit to the possible length of time you could get one color, if you've created a situation of continual turbulence, and that limit would be determined by how you set the mechanism up.

Is it possible to build a coin-flipper that does something like that? Randomizes the results but limits streaks?

I don't know. I guess you could do it, because even though you set it up to be trending one way or another at any given time, if you did it right there might be no way for the flippers to be sure they were in a trend, or to know which direction it was going, or when it would change, since there's no large-scale regular pattern, and local turbulence could conceal weak larger-scale trends.

In other words, you could make it "fair to the participants" within a certain number of flips even though it was always biased in one way or other and does have limits which you could figure out if you played it a very long time (let's say, a billion years).

Maybe someday someone will discover some necessary "turbulence" in the physical setup of fair human coin tossing that does keep it from trending too long in one direction, but if anybody ever does, it certainly won't be me, so I have to accept the possibility of the Jupiter of streaks looming out there somewhere on our infinite string.
 
So, err, have we agreed that a coin can come up heads a hundred times in a row?

Well, now, don't go asking me to prove it can. I don't know enough about the system to say. But I can't say it can't.
 

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