Important Question about Diabetes

[Kumar]

Hello,

I want to know that whether, can it be possible that one gets persistant elevated blood sugar levels for long period due to higher levels of body insulin or injected insulin specially in Insulin Resistance cases? If possible, then if he dicontinue injected insulin or reduce oral medicines, will his BS levels come down?

 

[Rolfe]

Hello,

I want to know that whether, can it be possible that one gets persistant elevated blood sugar levels for long period due to higher levels of body insulin or injected insulin specially in Insulin Resistance cases? If possible, then if he dicontinue injected insulin or reduce oral medicines, will his BS levels come down?

You need to ask a doctor or a specialist diabetic nurse about this. It's a complicated question, and I honestly don't think this is the forum to get this sort of medical advice. There's a thing called Somogyi overswing which might be relevant, also quesitons of whether this is type 1 or type 2 diabetes, and what might be the cause of any insulin resistance (type 2).

Honestly, if you're concerned, go ask a doctor or at least find a site which is specifically staffed to give reliable medical advice.

Rolfe.

 

[BillyJoe]

Kumar,

.....can it be possible that one gets persistant elevated blood sugar levels for long period due to higher levels of body insulin or injected insulin....

Insulin reduces blood sugar levels. So higher insulin levels causes lower blood sugar levels

....especially in Insulin Resistance cases?

In Insulin Resistance cases you need more insulin to produce the same lowering of blood sugar

.....if he dicontinue injected insulin or reduce oral medicines, will his BS levels come down?

No. If the insulin is discontinued, the blood sugar levels will go up.

Your friend needs a one on one discussion regarding his diabetes with someone experienced in managing diabetes.

regards,
BillyJoe

 

[Kumar]

Hello Rolfe, BillyJoe,

Thanks for reply. But this is a differant question. Insulin resistance is considered caused/triggered by guluco toxicity(high blood sugar), but excess insulin & excess blood sugar can go side by side in IR cases. Then it may be possible that IR may be caused by excess Insulin instead of excess sugar which is our simplest food & wheras Insulin is our most sensitive hormone. If it can be possible then increasing of insulin by medications may furthur worsen IR condition & cause persistant elevation of BS.

 

[Brian]

BS may increase or BS may decrease.

 

[Kumar]

Brian>> BS may increase or BS may decrease.

Hello Brain,

This is only the real problem i.e increase or decrease??

Read the previous posting pls.

 

[BillyJoe]

Kumar,

What you describe seems to make sense but I think your friend must be a very unusual case.

What you are saying is that your friend's high BS caused resistance to insulin and that increasing the dose of insulin in an attempt to keep the BS down failed to actually keep it down. The resulting persistently high BS then caused increasing insulin resistance resulting in the BS and insulin dose going up in tandem. Maybe he should have been more aggressive with the insulin in the first place. If he had kept the BS down to normal levels with adequate doses of insulin, perhaps he wouldn't have developed insulin resistance in the first place.

Also, it is possible that your friend has only a temporary reprieve. After all he is still a diabetic and I don't think diabetes ever resolves spontaneously. When his BS start rising again he would be well advised to get himself in touch with a diabetes specialist to help him to tightly control his BS and hence avoid repeating the experience he has just been through.

BillyJoe
(BTW, I wouldn't worry about Brian. He is using BS in another sense.)

 

[Kumar]

What you describe seems to make sense but I think your friend must be a very unusual case.
Maybe he should have been more aggressive with the insulin in the first place. If he had kept the BS down to normal levels with adequate doses of insulin, perhaps he wouldn't have developed insulin resistance in the first place.

BillyJoe,

Thanks. But this is not unusual case. He in 10 years old diabetic . During 3rd year to 6th year he was on minimum oral doses & BS was controlled. During 7th-to 9th year on moderately high oral doses. During 9th-10th(6 months) on high oral doses+injected insulin. BS remained uncontrolled during whole period of 7th-10th year when high sp.3rd generation medicines taken. Some other problems like upper abodaman continious blotting(pear/apple shaped obese, no weght loss), gastric problems, motions 98% unsatisfied, work unwillingness,irritated, less sensations in periph. extrememities , overeating, BS betwwen 200/300 F&PP on an average etc etc. Inspite of that one thing was also noted that Indicated diabetic symptoms like too much thirst & urine was not there & BS remained higher but constant(less fluctuations). He remained dull & inactive but not inconvinient. But now everthing is just reversed. Abd.blotting,constipation,gastric, hunger,thirst,urine all just reversing. Most important is that his Periph.& other Sensations are greatly improved . He is becoming more active but bit inconvinient mostly due to increased sensations.

I think all these things may indicate that ' somthing wrong somewhere can be possible and seems to make some sense as you uttered '.

Best wishes. [

 

[BillyJoe]

Kumar,

Thanks. But this is not unusual case. He in 10 years old diabetic . During 3rd year to 6th year he was on minimum oral doses....

Kumar, he is unusual.
For a juvenile onset diabetic to not be on insulin right from the start is very unusual.

Inspite of that one thing was also noted that Indicated diabetic symptoms like too much thirst & urine was not there

The classic diabetic symtom is passing too much urine. The kidneys try to excrete the excess sugar and excess water is dragged along with it.
Kumar, your friend is very unusual.

.....his Periph.& other Sensations are greatly improved .

I could be wrong but I thought peripheral neuropathy due to diabetes was permanent. As I say, I could be wrong.

BillyJoe

 

[Kumar]

Billy joe,

He is not a juvenile onset diabetic but is a Type2 with IR. During high dose treatment urine output become less then normal which is now normal. Same thirst.

I could be wrong but I thought peripheral neuropathy due to diabetes was permanent.

You are right. But this was not due to perpheral neuropathy but due to low perph. blood supply. Sensations, I mean natural feeling not of touch, hot or cold which were existing previously.

We have just to find out that if IR is caused be gulucotoxicity(as eccepted) or by Insulin toxicity(as speculated) due to hyperinsulinemia.

One article indicates; >Some studies clearly demonstrate the direct correlation between a decrease in insulin doses and a corresponding drop in blood pressure without deterioration in glucose control.< at; http://www.diabetesincontrol.com/jakescorner/i138.shtml

I am bit hpoeful that Insulin toxicity may be a/one cause of IR instead of gulucotoxicity which is needed to be studied.

 

[Rolfe]

Look, guys, this is a complicated and specialist medical problem. It needs to be discussed with a diabetologist, not batted around a general discussion list. Trust me on this.

Rolfe.

 

[BillyJoe]

Kumar

He is not a juvenile onset diabetic but is a Type2

Kumar, child diabetics are almost exclusively type 1 diabetics who require insulin from the time of diagnosis. As I said your friend is a very unusual case.

During high dose treatment urine output become less then normal which is now normal. Same thirst.

Yes, as the BS reduces towards normal the symptoms of high BS, such as increased thirst an increased amounts of urine, diappear.
When you said "diabetic symptoms like too much thirst & urine was not there", I read this to mean that he was not passing enough urine but, of course, the reverse is the case as you now seem to agree.

We have just to find out that if IR is caused be gulucotoxicity(as eccepted) or by Insulin toxicity(as speculated) due to hyperinsulinemia.

In obesity there is IR which results in hyperglycaemia and hyperinsulinaemia. I thought the IR was the primary defect but I could be wrong.

Some studies clearly demonstrate the direct correlation between a decrease in insulin doses and a corresponding drop in blood pressure without deterioration in glucose control

I'll have a look when I get the chance.

I am bit hpoeful that Insulin toxicity may be a/one cause of IR instead of gulucotoxicity which is needed to be studied.

Are you talking about insulin toxicity being a cause of diabetes? In other words, the pancreas produces too much insulin which results in insulin resistance and consequently diabetes? Or are you talking about what happens in an established diabetic when excessive doses of insulin are used (->IR->high BS)


BTW Kumar,
Who is the diabetic you are concerned about. Is he a relative? Are you having an input into how his diabetes is managed? Is he still under medical care?

regards,
BillyJoe

 

[Kumar]

Hi BillyJoe,

He is under regular treatment. But these unusual symptoms made me intrested. I am aware about each & every development. I think there is some problem in current theory but I can be wrong also. No doubt it is a case of Type2 with IR. It may or may not be unusual case. If glucotoxicity toxicity is the cause of IR(as now accepted) then this case is unusual, but if it comes that Insulin toxicity(hyperinsulinemia) is the cause of IR then it will be a usual case along with millions other.

Yes, as the BS reduces towards normal the symptoms of high BS, such as increased thirst an increased amounts of urine, diappear.

But it is happening just opposite. When he was taking high doses he was having less urine & thirst inspite of high BS that time. But when now, he is taking less doses he is getting more(but normal) than earlier. Other feelings in body & extremities are much better as if these are wake up from sleeping. If it comes that IR is from insulin toxicity then we can also suspect that some diabetic complications would had been caused due this unattended/misjudged factor.

 

[Rolfe]

Hi BillyJoe,

He is under regular treatment. But these unusual symptoms made me intrested. I am aware about each & every development. I think there is some problem in current theory but I can be wrong also. No doubt it is a case of Type2 with IR. It may or may not be unusual case. If glucotoxicity toxicity is the cause of IR(as now accepted) then this case is unusual, but if it comes that Insulin toxicity(hyperinsulinemia) is the cause of IR then it will be a usual case along with millions other.

But it is happening just opposite. When he was taking high doses he was having less urine & thirst inspite of high BS that time. But when now, he is taking less doses he is getting more(but normal) than earlier. Other feelings in body & extremities are much better as if these are wake up from sleeping. If it comes that IR is from insulin toxicity then we can also suspect that some diabetic complications would had been caused due this unattended/misjudged factor.

Look, I'm a clinical biochemist, and I can assure you that you haven't stumbled over any "problem" in current theory.

Type 2 DM with insulin resistance is extremely unusual in juveniles, but I've heard it's becoming more common as kids get obese by stuffing themselves with high-fat food. So I suppose it's possible to have a case at that age.

You haven't given anything close to enough information to allow anyone to make a considered judgement about the case - serial plasma glucose measurements and glycosylated Hb measurements taken at different insulin dose rates would be nice for a start. In fact much of what you say doesn't make normal sense, possibly because of language difficulties.

However, I seriously don't think that a discussion forum like this is the place to parade someone's medical history for every Tom Dick or Harry to shove in their tuppenceworth. Whatever the point of starting this thread was, I for my part think you should pay attention to what the medical people who are in charge of the patient are saying, and not trawl the Internet looking for either informed or uninformed comment.

Rolfe.

 

[Kumar]

Hello Rolfe,

Thanks for you views. Actually, I am not putting this case for taking treatment advices. But I am mentioning some 'can be missing' aspect of CMS & which may benifits to most diabetic patients. He has first diagnoised as diabetic at the age of 40 & now he is 50. So no question of Juveniles case.

The only important aspect here is to know that if IR is by glucotoxicity or by Insulin toxicity as I previously mentioned. If you or anyone else can tell me that whether IR can be possible by Insulin toxicity insted of Glucotoxicity, it will be helpfull.

Furthur, diabetes is a genetic disease then whether glucotoxicity can trigger some genetic changes in genes or not. I think insulin being hormone is better suited to genetic changes & Sugar being a simple food, seems to cause only environmental type diseases not genetic type diseases.

 

[Kumar]

I feel this aspect should be seriously & honestly studied for the mass benefits to humanity."

Best wishes

 

[BillyJoe]

I feel this aspect should be seriously & honestly studied for the mass benefits to humanity.

BillyJoe
(over and out)

 

[Kumar]

But why?? Anything wrong?

 

[tracer]

He has first diagnoised as diabetic at the age of 40 & now he is 50. So no question of Juveniles case.

Oh -- so when you say, "He's 10 years old diabetic", you mean he's had diabetes for 10 years, not that he's 10 years old.

 

[Kumar]

Oh,thanks, I didn't think like that. His age in 50 years now & his diabetes is since last 10 years. Just a confusion. Sorry.

What do you think, which of of these two i.e. Sugar and Insulin can cause insulin resistance & hereditory changes??