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Implications of Scottish Independence

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Its yet another tactical error from the Unionist side in my opinion. The more they go on and on about this man and the wings over scotland blog, the more people who've never heard of it before will become curious enough to google it and read it.

Similarly I'd never read The Guardian newspaper and probably never would have thought of buying it if I hadn't started out as a Sun reader and been treated to a stream of insults about that particular newspaper and how its a byword for all things loony lefty and contemptible. Or to put it more succinctly - there's no such thing as bad publicity.
 
... I'm still finding it hard , in such numbers, to see the claimed groundswell desire for independence. The numbers are in fact, about even and could equally be interpreted as a groundswell desire for the status quo. I imagine there are a few snipers on the sidelines like myself who want something rather different from either, but I'm not claiming my views are in the majority.
This from SCOT goes POP
Pro-independence campaign close the gap to just 7% in dramatic poll from "gold standard" ICM
The second referendum poll of this evening is now out, from the firm that is often regarded as the UK's "gold standard" polling organisation. It shows the No lead almost halving from 12% to 7% -
Should Scotland be an independent country?
Yes 36% (+2)
No 43% (-3)
With Don't Knows excluded, it works out as -
Yes 45% (+3)
No 55% (-3)
http://scotgoespop.blogspot.co.uk/2014/06/pro-independence-campaign-close-gap-to_15.html?m=1
Here are the poll of polls figures, last shown for each month, from the same source. Don't knows not excluded. Could this be called a "groundswell"? That's a matter of definition. It is a trend.
Month No % Lead
Sep 2013 - 19.4%
Oct 2013 - 18.2%
Nov 2013 - 18.0%
Dec 2013 - 16.4%
Feb 2014 - 14.2%
Mar 2014 - 12.5%
Apr 2014 - 11.4%
May 2014 - 13.3%
Jun 2014 - 9.9%
 
Its yet another tactical error from the Unionist side in my opinion. The more they go on and on about this man and the Wings over Scotland blog, the more people who've never heard of it before will become curious enough to google it and read it.

Similarly I'd never read The Guardian newspaper and probably never would have thought of buying it if I hadn't started out as a Sun reader and been treated to a stream of insults about that particular newspaper and how its a byword for all things loony lefty and contemptible. Or to put it more succinctly - there's no such thing as bad publicity.


Stuart writes exceptionally well and that will always win out.

If anyone with too much time on their hands wanted to search my posts in this thread for references to Wings they'd probably find these starting towards the end of 2011. I had been looking for a good place to discuss the referendum, and my initial choice (Electric Hermit's forum) folded because it didn't generate enough support and was basically trolled to death. I tried a few places but kept going back to Wings (which had few posts and fewer comments at the time) because the writing was so damn good and I liked the way the guy thought.

It seems that a lot of other people thought the same thing, and Wings has grown like Topsy. Stuart seems to have made a conscious decision to stick his neck out and risk getting his head chopped off, because his commitment to independence is so strong. Although he he has a very confident writing style (and will swear like a trooper on Twitter though not on the blog), I get the feeling he's consciously sacrificing his comfort zone to the cause, as it were.

Wings is now pretty much a force of nature. The unionists are scared witless of it. So they go for the smear. And I agree 100% with Strawberry. They're playing right into our hands.

Just the other day I remembered something that happened in 2001. A young vet who had just completed a PhD thesis and a book about the historical approach to foot and mouth disease in Britain found herself unexpectedly in the firing line when the disease actually broke out. Some of her work was misrepresented by tabloid journalists and she started getting flak as a whack-job from mainstream veterinary writers.

Then someone invited her to speak at our local BVA divisional meeting. Several people demurred, saying they didn't want to listen to a nut who thought FMD was no worse than catching a cold. I was the Secretary and it was up to me to organise and publicise the meeting. I googled the speaker and found some of her own writing.

Half way down the first paragraph it was obvious that she was a serious, evidence-based academic with a fascinating insight into the historical and sociological impact of the disease. She wasn't actually saying any of the whack-job things attributed to her by the press. She gave an excellent talk and half the folk at the meeting bought her book.

That's what reading the author first-hand does for misrepresentation and misconception. All this brouhaha is doing is driving people to read Wings. Where they read this, for example.

http://wingsoverscotland.com/becoming-the-story/

That's an article about the smearing and lies, but of course the blog is chock-full of excellent articles deconstructing the scare stories and the hypocrisy of the No campaign.

Keep them coming.

Rolfe.
 
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While we're posting interesting links, here's one to "Reverend" Stu Campbell's astute, incisive and mature political analysis:

http://wingsoverscotland.com/everyone-in-britain-is-a-moron/
That item followed the results of the 2010 election.
I agree the "headlines" are politically incorrect and rather childish, but what do you think of the actual content of the piece? Would you , for instance, disagree that the relationship between the number of votes polled per party bears a rather strange relationship to the number of seats?
Remember, this was written before the Con/Dem alliance, at a point when speculation about a Lib/Lab pact was running rampant.

I recall at the time being rather puzzled myself, that after all the talk of change, not much did.
 
That's an article about the smearing and lies, but of course the blog is chock-full of excellent articles deconstructing the scare stories and the hypocrisy of the No campaign.
The unionists appear to have abandoned scare tactics in favour of celebrity endorsements and smears, except for Gordon Brown, who evidently takes a while to get himself into line. He's still banging on about how we won't get lottery money.

But the "No Thankers" still don't seem to have many people on the ground here in Glasgow except an old gentleman on an electric buggy who zooms about covered with No posters.
 
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This from SCOT goes POP http://scotgoespop.blogspot.co.uk/2014/06/pro-independence-campaign-close-gap-to_15.html?m=1
Here are the poll of polls figures, last shown for each month, from the same source. Don't knows not excluded. Could this be called a "groundswell"? That's a matter of definition. It is a trend.
Month No % Lead
Sep 2013 - 19.4%
Oct 2013 - 18.2%
Nov 2013 - 18.0%
Dec 2013 - 16.4%
Feb 2014 - 14.2%
Mar 2014 - 12.5%
Apr 2014 - 11.4%
May 2014 - 13.3%
Jun 2014 - 9.9%

I wholly agree that there is a No...> Don't know...> maybe...> yes trend. It could hardly be otherwise, given how few folk had given the question any real thought a year back. When I was asking people casually it took me a year to find anyone who would say "yes". Now it would be easy to find yes voters (though last time I asked a group of 11 people (at the end of May), I got 7 no, 3 yes, 1 "No idea", so my findings are still not as high as the official ones, while supporting the increase in "yes" votes. A 6:4:1 vote, if the DK is taken as yes would be more like it.

But "groundswell"? It doesn't feel like that to me, at least not compared to independence movements in other countries we could all think of. It's a steady trickle.

I think a lot of folk still don't really care much. We don't have Russian troops on the street corners, or similar signs of oppression. Most folk don't feel oppressed at all and would be indignant if it was hinted that they should.

In fact the High Road to London remains the best prospect for many Scotchmen. If there is a widespread emotional desire for independence it is being kept awfully quiet.

Yes, some people seem to want it, heart and mind . But even if we grant that all prospective Yes voters are of this mind, that still leaves the other half of Scots. Now if these include a big bloc who truly don't give a toss either way, then there's a chance they will tick the yes box , not because they passionately want it, but because they know people who do- and they can as easily put Y as N. That's what campaigning is for after all.

On the other hand, a lot of people who say they will vote "yes" may change their mind in the privacy of the polling booth.
My money is still on No. As I said last page, I worry that a close vote may be a bad result for everyone, no matter which way it goes- and that seems to be where we are headed. If there truly was a popular groundswell, we would not be posting on this thread, because the outcome would be obvious.
 
That item followed the results of the 2010 election.
I agree the "headlines" are politically incorrect and rather childish, but what do you think of the actual content of the piece? ....


I just clicked on that link. It's over four years old. It's one of the old politics articles from his previous blog that Stu ported to Wings when he set it up. It pre-dates the SNP landslide (and any hope of an independence referendum) by a full year.

Please, please don't tell me that's what LJ has produced as evidence of Stu's "racism"? Say it's not so! I think someone has had a serious SoH bypass.

A little way up, I said I liked Stu's style. That article is a case in point. It's laugh-out-loud funny, the way he expresses intelligent frustration with the outcome of the election in such irreverent terms. It endears him to me no end.

Oh, and look up "flyting", Sassenach readers.

Rolfe.
 
I also found it funny, including the part about Northern Ireland being potato brained half wits. In no way did it come across as the writings of a racist, more of an exasperated rant at everybody and anybody.
 
Yes and that's how it struck me too, but remember that in this very thread people have expressed real frustration at having to live with that sort of low level racist remark. Between friends and on occasion, it's a joke. When it persists, or is aimed at strangers, it can get pretty wearying.
 
Yes and that's how it struck me too, but remember that in this very thread people have expressed real frustration at having to live with that sort of low level racist remark. Between friends and on occasion, it's a joke. When it persists, or is aimed at strangers, it can get pretty wearying.


That was written "the morning after the night before", and he didn't miss anybody out. The Scots were "cringing, pitiful scum" after all.

This was a one-off. It was, in effect, a flyting. It was something for the morning of the election results, not a tone that marks the blog as a whole. It's about a scintillion light years from the sort of constant low-level "sweaty socks" thing that gets on people's wick.

Having said that, I'd put a substantial bet on the proposition that some unionist agitator, somewhere, in the not too distant future, will add "The "Reverend" Stuart Campbell of the uber-cybernat blog Wings Over Scotland called English people "whimpering, spineless cowards!" It's right there on his blog in black and white!" I don't know how they came to miss that one, come to think of it.

Rolfe.
 
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Have you actually asked them if this was their reason, or is this just your opinion?


It's a constant and well-developed theme in the independence debates. The "black hole" effect of London sucking the money and the talent into its orbit. The fact that so many young Scots have to leave their native land in order to better themselves. The fact that the "London jobs" are all too often seen as superior, a promotion - from the Labour apparatchiks who jump at the chance of a Westminster seat rather than a Holyrood one, to people like Jim Naughtie and Sarah Smith who've just been parachuted in to tell the Scots what to think, even though they've been away from Scottish politics and life for many years, because they're seen as a "better class of presenter". And Gary Robertson was sacked so the BBC could afford their wages.

Scotland has been bleeding talent as well as wealth to the south-east of England since 1603. Our population was stagnant for many decades, partly as a result of this. The country ought to be able to offer its own young people a choice of equivalent opportunity without having to move to England.

Now I know you don't see it that way. London is your capital and Scotland is a region and shouldn't aspire to offer what London offers. Don't get above yourself and all that. But it's a huge part of the thinking of many people as regards the independence debate.

Rolfe.
 
As you said, your bad.

You wouldn't care to give your reasons for believing that Scotland is a less viable country than those it's trying to catch up with?

Rolfe.

Oh, I don't doubt that Scotland can be viable.
 
It's a constant and well-developed theme in the independence debates. The "black hole" effect of London sucking the money and the talent into its orbit. The fact that so many young Scots have to leave their native land in order to better themselves. The fact that the "London jobs" are all too often seen as superior, a promotion - from the Labour apparatchiks who jump at the chance of a Westminster seat rather than a Holyrood one, to people like Jim Naughtie and Sarah Smith who've just been parachuted in to tell the Scots what to think, even though they've been away from Scottish politics and life for many years, because they're seen as a "better class of presenter". And Gary Robertson was sacked so the BBC could afford their wages.

Scotland has been bleeding talent as well as wealth to the south-east of England since 1603. Our population was stagnant for many decades, partly as a result of this. The country ought to be able to offer its own young people a choice of equivalent opportunity without having to move to England.

Now I know you don't see it that way. London is your capital and Scotland is a region and shouldn't aspire to offer what London offers. Don't get above yourself and all that. But it's a huge part of the thinking of many people as regards the independence debate.

Rolfe.

Young Scots choose to go to London.

London bleeds talent from all over the UK and the world. As Hollywood will bleed talent from British drama. And Rangers will bleed talent from Partick Thistle.

In the SNP's Scotland, will there be no way for young Scots to follow their ambition? Will Arbroath have the same job openings as Edinburgh?

Individuals being able to stay at home or go pursue their dreams is a good thing.
 
Young Scots choose to go to London.

London bleeds talent from all over the UK and the world. As Hollywood will bleed talent from British drama. And Rangers will bleed talent from Partick Thistle.

In the SNP's Scotland, will there be no way for young Scots to follow their ambition? Will Arbroath have the same job openings as Edinburgh?

Individuals being able to stay at home or go pursue their dreams is a good thing.


Young Scots don't have a choice in many cases, as there is no equivalent opportunity in Scotland.

As you so rightly point out, movement of people in search of jobs is international, and there is no reason independence would prevent Scots who want to pursue a career in London from doing so. The problem is that so many have to move when they don't want to.

Arbroath is in the same country as Edinburgh - and Glasgow come to that. Once more you denigrate Scotland by portraying the entire country as parochial and small-town, having no claim to a metropolis of its own. If you read what I actually wrote, you'll notice that I was talking about the choice to pursue a career to the top in one's own country, not about anyone being prevented from going somewhere else if that was their preference.

Scotland has suffered greatly from the "black hole" effect. That London is the best hope for so many of our talented young people, because they simply cannot achieve the same advancement in their own country, is bad for the country.

Rolfe.
 
That was written "the morning after the night before", and he didn't miss anybody out. The Scots were "cringing, pitiful scum" after all.

This was a one-off. It was, in effect, a flyting. It was something for the morning of the election results, not a tone that marks the blog as a whole. It's about a scintillion light years from the sort of constant low-level "sweaty socks" thing that gets on people's wick.

Having said that, I'd put a substantial bet on the proposition that some unionist agitator, somewhere, in the not too distant future, will add "The "Reverend" Stuart Campbell of the uber-cybernat blog Wings Over Scotland called English people "whimpering, spineless cowards!" It's right there on his blog in black and white!" I don't know how they came to miss that one, come to think of it.

Rolfe.


*Sigh*

This all sums up my frustration (and maybe that of others) in attempting to engage in debate with zealots. The reason I posted that 201 post-General-Election column of Campbell's was (as I clearly pointed out) to illustrate a) his lack of political astuteness and analytical skills, and b) his sardonic, deliberately-provocative style of prose. I suggested - and continue to suggest - that this might give people pause for thought before lionising him for his contributions to the referendum commentary/debate.

Having posted the link to that column, I then made one further reference to it in a subsequent post. I explicitly posted Campbell's conclusion from that article (which stated that another General Election within 6 months was more or less inevitable, and that the situation was basically unresolvable), and pointed out that this was an extremely poor and uneducated piece of political judgement. In the course of making this argument, I made the parenthetical observation that there were racist undertones to the article.

So, inevitably, a pro-independence (and, it appears, pro-Campbell) commentator here chose to cherry-pick the word "racist" in parentheses, and asked me to justify it. Even though it was obviously not central to my argument, I'd written it, and it was fair enough to ask me to justify it. I did so (in my opinion). To claim some sort of immunity for Campbell under the weasel excuse of "oh it was all tongue in cheek" or "oh it was just a general rant" is deeply flawed thinking - just the sort of flawed thinking that others regularly try to use (why does the name Jeremy Clarkson spring into my head right now....?).

Anyhow, my point here is that nobody has tried to debate the real point of my posts about Campbell: that he is an immature, provocative, volatile individual who can be very unpleasant and offensive at times (anyone care to defend his "I hope you die of cancer" and "I laughed through 9/11" rant?), and that - more importantly - he has very poor political judgement. Instead, the order of the day from so many pro-independence evangelists seems to be to try to paint Campbell as some sort of "victim" of a "witch hunt".

I shouldn't be surprised. But I am disappointed.
 
That item followed the results of the 2010 election.
I agree the "headlines" are politically incorrect and rather childish, but what do you think of the actual content of the piece? Would you , for instance, disagree that the relationship between the number of votes polled per party bears a rather strange relationship to the number of seats?
Remember, this was written before the Con/Dem alliance, at a point when speculation about a Lib/Lab pact was running rampant.

I recall at the time being rather puzzled myself, that after all the talk of change, not much did.


I wholly disagree with the content and the tenor of the article.

In more detail, a first-past-the-post (FPTP) system with separate constituencies is the system that the UK parliament has chosen. It has flaws, of course, but it also has benefits of the sort that proportional representation (PR) does not have. Most importantly - and perhaps paradoxically - FPTP means that extremist fringe parties almost never hold the balance of power, as they so often do in PR coalition parliaments.

But of course it's possible to have anomalies in FPTP between parliamentary representation and total votes cast. It's even possible to have extreme anomalies: imagine if there were only 40 constituencies, with 100 votes cast in each one. In Constituencies 1-39, Party A beat Party B by 51 votes to 49, but in Constituency 20, Party B beat Party A by 95 votes to 5. In that scenario, Party A would hold 39 parliamentary seats out of 40 (with Party B holding just one), yet Party B would actually have garnered a larger total number of votes.

That's an extreme example for illustration of course, but it's logical and defensible in a wider context, when one takes a more considered, intellectual approach to analysing FPTP versus other PR-based systems. And if the UK electoral system needs to change, then it is a separate matter from a whinge over the outcome of a particular election under that system. Everybody knew how the system worked before they went to place their vote (or not place their vote).

Regarding the formation of a government post-election, the unwritten constitutional rule is that the monarch invites the leader of the party with the most parliamentary seats to form a government. That seems fair to me - but again, if people have an issue with that, then it needs to be debated before any election and formation of a government. Incidentally, if one were to adopt Campbell's "reasoning" in this area, then there would be chaos (and constitutional crisis) every time there was no one party with an overall majority (i.e. a hung parliament). After all, by definition the combined seats of the parties excluding the largest party (e.g. the Conservatives in 2010) would represent over 50% of total seats.

But surely it doesn't take much common sense and intelligence to understand that the single largest party has the moral and electoral mandate to have the first try at forming a coalition. In 2010, had the Conservatives and LibDems (or the Conservatives and any other party/parties that took the total seats over 50%) not been able to thrash out a coalition agreement, then of course the next step would have been to see if Labour and LibDem could form a government. But to suggest that it would have been fair to exclude the Conservatives from having the first opportunity to form a government seems to me to be either the product of very poor thinking, or of an innate anti-Conservative bias, or both. In the case of Campbell, I suspect it might be both.

Personally, I think that for all its flaws, the UK's FPTP system is a good system which (on the whole) produces strong governments that are representative of the public will. Interestingly and ironically perhaps, one of FPTP's main benefits is that it usually - though not in 2010 - produces one clear "winner", which obviates the need for messy coalition politics.

With all that in mind, I thought that Campbell's article was ill-judged, intemperate, lacking in intellectual rigour and just plain wrong in many areas. In seeking to blame voters first and the system second, he was (in my view) exposing his shortcomings in political analysis. And his closing confident prediction was, of course, totally wrong and an inept piece of analysis in itself.
 
Young Scots choose to go to London.

London bleeds talent from all over the UK and the world. As Hollywood will bleed talent from British drama. And Rangers will bleed talent from Partick Thistle.
In the SNP's Scotland, will there be no way for young Scots to follow their ambition? Will Arbroath have the same job openings as Edinburgh?

Individuals being able to stay at home or go pursue their dreams is a good thing.

Rangers? Partick Thistle are in the Premier League while Rangers are in the division below them.
 
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