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Implications of Scottish Independence

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IIRC the Quebec independence referendum got something like 93% turnout. I would be very surprised if the Scottish referendum got much less than that; it is a question of historic importance after all. If you can't be bothered to get off the couch and vote on this question, what would you care enough to vote on?
 
I think there will be a reasonably high turnout. Reductio ad absurdum speculation about maybe only one person voting is just that - absurd.

Everyone knows the referendum is on. Everyone knows the date. Everyone should know the importance of the vote. No doubt there will be a few unfortunate incidents where people who were determined to vote are prevented from doing so by some unfortunate chance, but in the nature of things these will be few. If under these circumstances some people choose not to vote, hell mend them.

I cannot support any attempt to claim the votes of these people for either side. 1979 was soul-destroying. We knew in advance that everyone who couldn't be bothered to vote would be counted as a No. Some committed Yes people who were on the electoral register at two addresses (student flat and home) knew that the one Yes vote they were allowed to cast would be automatically cancelled out by the assumed No from their other registration. (I think there are very much fewer double registrations now but it was quite common in the 1970s.)

This time the No camp can only count the votes of people who actually vote for them. If they can't motivate more people to vote for them, they lose. That's it. Why should it be otherwise?

By the way, that bizarre story from nearly a year ago about some anonymous punter walking into William Hill's and putting £200,000 on No has just been repeated by the Daily Record as if it just happened. The whole story gets less and less credible the more you think about it, never mind when it allegedly happened.

Anyone with better knowledge than I have of the betting system know what to make of it? Some people are saying you simply can't put on bets of that size without questions being asked, and your identity checked. Money laundering legislation for a start. I don't know what to think.

http://wingsoverscotland.com/against-all-odds/

Rolfe.
 
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The Parti Quebecois lost their independence referendum very narrowly in '95 (50.6% No). Had they won, I think a lot of the same issues you described in your post would have surfaced, complicated by the language issues there.


I think that would be quite likely. Even had the Quebec separatists won that referendum, it would have had no force of law, and no secession would have actually occurred.

It seems that the PQ has lost its appeal; they were badly beaten in the most recent election in April.


Yes, Quebec doesn't seem to have any interest in seceding any more. It was historically a fringe thing, but it came close in 1995 due to a confluence of a whole lot of factors over several years that may be rather unique to Canada and Canadians, who knows?

That said, there has been no appetite for another attempt since the 1995 referendum, and the PQ is pretty much dead in the water these days.

A whole lot of other stuff transpired after the failed referendum, including legal decisions about the matter and, as it turns out, there were several problems with the referendum as framed, but more importantly, it turned out that Quebec didn't have a unilateral right to secede in the first place, either under Canadian law or under international law.

The failed referendum led to a whole bunch of stuff - including a Reference to the SCC, which ultimately set out what would actually be required for a province to secede from Canada - and the Clarity Act as well. It turned out that Quebec would have required a lot more than just getting "50%+1" on the referendum question that was asked (including oversight as to the wording of the question and other details which are probably not important in this thread at this time) but including, most importantly, a constitutional amendment, which would itself require the consent of all the other provinces (and the federal parliament).

Yes. I was talking to a lovely lady from Quebec about this a week or so back. She was fascinated by the local parallels here.


The parallels are what have (quite belatedly) prompted my (admittedly less than fascinated) attention as well.


I don't believe a narrow No result should be set aside. Absolutely not.


To continue the parallel, as noted above, the Quebec attempt at unilateral secession failed, pretty much as narrowly as a referendum could possibly do, but in the aftermath, the Supreme Court of Canada heard and decided a Reference to determine whether such a referendum could, in fact, be binding and whether Quebec could unilaterally decide to secede at all either pursuant to Canadian law or pursuant to international law, and the answer to those questions, ultimately, was, "No."

In addition, in that Reference, the SCC also said that any such referendum would require a "clear majority of the populace" to vote in favour of it (before it even gets to all of the other requirements), but the SCC left the definition of "clear majority of the populace" to the courts. I suspect that 50.1% of, say, a 20% or 30% or 40% or 50% voter turnout might not constitute a "clear majority of the populace" but I don't know.

Just sayin'.


You think every citizen of the EU should have a vote on whether the UK leaves?


I'm not sure whether or not that would be a valid parallel, given the differences between the UK and the EU versus the differences between Scotland and the rest of the UK, but to continue the parallel above, I don't think that it would require that every citizen of the larger entity to have a personal vote, no. However, the other parties to the joint venture (in the Quebec reference case, the joint venture being Canada, and the other parties being all of the other provinces that comprise Canada) were, in fact, determined by the Supreme Court of Canada to have a say in the matter, since secession would require a constitutional amendment which would, in turn, require the consent of all of the other provinces.


Sorry but you don't get a veto.


Again, continuing the parallel (so far as it holds), the Supreme Court of Canada would appear to disagree with you. I don't know if that's how it will work in the U.K. but if the parallels hold, it seems that there may very well be very live issues there similar to those that occurred here in Canada.

Personally, I doubt that the separatist faction in Scotland will win the day in its current referendum (and I personally do not care one way or the other as I have absolutely no dog in this race), but if they do, I expect there will be lengthy and expensive legal questions and court decisions to follow, if the Quebec secession attempt is anything to go by.
 
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Also, can someone please provide the exact text of the question that is to be on the ballot for the Scotland secession referendum?

My apologies if this has been posted before but this thread is a gazillion posts long now and googling the query only gives me a whole whack of political nonsense without ever setting out what the question on the referendum ballot actually is.
 
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I think that would be quite likely. Even had the Quebec separatists won that referendum, it would have had no force of law, and no secession would have actually occurred.




Yes, Quebec doesn't seem to have any interest in seceding any more. It was historically a fringe thing, but it came close in 1995 due to a confluence of a whole lot of factors over several years that may be rather unique to Canada and Canadians, who knows?

That said, there has been no appetite for another attempt since the 1995 referendum, and the PQ is pretty much dead in the water these days.

A whole lot of other stuff transpired after the failed referendum, including legal decisions about the matter and, as it turns out, there were several problems with the referendum as framed, but more importantly, it turned out that Quebec didn't have a unilateral right to secede in the first place, either under Canadian law or under international law.

The failed referendum led to a whole bunch of stuff - including a Reference to the SCC, which ultimately set out what would actually be required for a province to secede from Canada - and the Clarity Act as well. It turned out that Quebec would have required a lot more than just getting "50%+1" on the referendum question that was asked (including oversight as to the wording of the question and other details which are probably not important in this thread at this time) but including, most importantly, a constitutional amendment, which would itself require the consent of all the other provinces (and the federal parliament).




The parallels are what have (quite belatedly) prompted my (admittedly less than fascinated) attention as well.





To continue the parallel, as noted above, the Quebec attempt at unilateral secession failed, pretty much as narrowly as a referendum could possibly do, but in the aftermath, the Supreme Court of Canada heard and decided a Reference to determine whether such a referendum could, in fact, be binding and whether Quebec could unilaterally decide to secede at all either pursuant to Canadian law or pursuant to international law, and the answer to those questions, ultimately, was, "No."

In addition, in that Reference, the SCC also said that any such referendum would require a "clear majority of the populace" to vote in favour of it (before it even gets to all of the other requirements), but the SCC left the definition of "clear majority of the populace" to the courts. I suspect that 50.1% of, say, a 20% or 30% or 40% or 50% voter turnout might not constitute a "clear majority of the populace" but I don't know.

Just sayin'.





I'm not sure whether or not that would be a valid parallel, given the differences between the UK and the EU versus the differences between Scotland and the rest of the UK, but to continue the parallel above, I don't think that it would require that every citizen of the larger entity to have a personal vote, no. However, the other parties to the joint venture (in the Quebec reference case, the joint venture being Canada, and the other parties being all of the other provinces that comprise Canada) were, in fact, determined by the Supreme Court of Canada to have a say in the matter, since secession would require a constitutional amendment which would, in turn, require the consent of all of the other provinces.





Again, continuing the parallel (so far as it holds), the Supreme Court of Canada would appear to disagree with you. I don't know if that's how it will work in the U.K. but if the parallels hold, it seems that there may very well be very live issues there similar to those that occurred here in Canada.

Personally, I doubt that the separatist faction in Scotland will win the day in its current referendum (and I personally do not care one way or the other as I have absolutely no dog in this race), but if they do, I expect there will be lengthy and expensive legal questions and court decisions to follow, if the Quebec secession attempt is anything to go by.

That's all well and good (or not, from the Québécoise I hear from), but the UK government has said for some time that the referendum will be legally binding.

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/scottish-independence-uk-government-totally-3144659
 
Also, can someone please provide the exact text of the question that is to be on the ballot for the Scotland secession referendum?

My apologies if this has been posted before but this thread is a gazillion posts long now and googling the query only gives me a whole whack of political nonsense without ever setting out what the question on the referendum ballot actually is.

"Should Scotland be an independent country?"
 
Also, can someone please provide the exact text of the question that is to be on the ballot for the Scotland secession referendum?

My apologies if this has been posted before but this thread is a gazillion posts long now and googling the query only gives me a whole whack of political nonsense without ever setting out what the question on the referendum ballot actually is.


We'd be fairly obliged if you wouldn't use the s-word. It's an independence referendum. References to secession and separation are generally regarded as pejorative.

The previous post is correct. "Should Scotland be an independent country?"

I saw the Quebec wording. Oh dearie, dearie me.

Rolfe.
 
We'd be fairly obliged if you wouldn't use the s-word. It's an independence referendum. References to secession and separation are generally regarded as pejorative.
I think Lash L only referred to secession with reference to the province of Quebec, in respect of which it was legally the correct vocab. Other than "separatist faction in Scotland" right at the end, but I can't see why that's more nocuous than "nationalist" which is is a widely used descriptor.

ETA--Oops yes there is a reference to the "Scottish secession referendum" which you quoted.
 
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As I said, it is regarded as pejorative. It doesn't matter whether the person using the term intended it to be pejorative or not, or whether yet another "neutral" observer thinks it isn't pejorative.

It is seen as pejorative in Scotland and pretty please we would like people to stop using it, as a matter of courtesy.

Rolfe.
 
As I said, it is regarded as pejorative. It doesn't matter whether the person using the term intended it to be pejorative or not, or whether yet another "neutral" observer thinks it isn't pejorative.

It is seen as pejorative in Scotland and pretty please we would like people to stop using it, as a matter of courtesy.

Rolfe.

A wee preview of a post separation Scottish state there. It's not pejorative at all. It's a fact. You are a separatist.
You got the wording on the referendum framed the way you wanted, is that not enough for you?
 
As I said, it is regarded as pejorative. It doesn't matter whether the person using the term intended it to be pejorative or not, or whether yet another "neutral" observer thinks it isn't pejorative.

It is seen as pejorative in Scotland and pretty please we would like people to stop using it, as a matter of courtesy.

Rolfe.

Is it possible for you to step back a little and see that other people, who are emotionally connected to the unionist side, see 'separatist' as accurate and nationalism as divisive and unnecessary?

You seem unwilling to grant that the other side may have equally sincerely held views and use language that reflects that worldview. As you are indulged, try to indulge others.
 
I regard it as overly precious to seek to avoid either separatist or nationalist.

"Secession" is technically inaccurate. It would not be if the UK government had ruled out recognising the result, but it has done the opposite of that.
 
Is it possible for you to step back a little and see that other people, who are emotionally connected to the unionist side, see 'separatist' as accurate and nationalism as divisive and unnecessary?

You seem unwilling to grant that the other side may have equally sincerely held views and use language that reflects that worldview. As you are indulged, try to indulge others.


You are not understanding. It doesn't matter that various commentators (I'm talking about non-Scots here, Lash L and Francesca and others) may sincerely believe their use of language is neutral and non-confrontational. I'm pointing out that it is perceived as being pejorative and asking them to stop using it as a matter of courtesy.

We all know that convinced unionists deliberately use these terms precisely to be pejorative, and take delight in so doing. "Separatist" and "separation" have been banned in the House of Commons for that reason, but they continue to do it elsewhere. In order to annoy.

I am speaking to the uninvolved commentators who are (by accident or design) choosing to use the pejorative language of the unionists in the debate. I'm asking them to stop it. Maybe they didn't know. Now they do know, it will be interesting to see if they do stop it. Independence is a perfectly good, non-loaded word, which is the accurate term to use in this context.

I certainly have no intention of asking unionists to stop using their favourite derogatory terms. Might as well ask a cloud to stop raining.

Rolfe.
 
You are not understanding. It doesn't matter that various commentators (I'm talking about non-Scots here, Lash L and Francesca and others) may sincerely believe their use of language is neutral and non-confrontational. I'm pointing out that it is perceived as being pejorative and asking them to stop using it as a matter of courtesy.

We all know that convinced unionists deliberately use these terms precisely to be pejorative, and take delight in so doing. "Separatist" and "separation" have been banned in the House of Commons for that reason, but they continue to do it elsewhere. In order to annoy.

I am speaking to the uninvolved commentators who are (by accident or design) choosing to use the pejorative language of the unionists in the debate. I'm asking them to stop it. Maybe they didn't know. Now they do know, it will be interesting to see if they do stop it. Independence is a perfectly good, non-loaded word, which is the accurate term to use in this context.

I certainly have no intention of asking unionists to stop using their favourite derogatory terms. Might as well ask a cloud to stop raining.

Rolfe.

Independence and separatist are equally valid terms. Anything else is biased special pleading.
 
Now they do know, it will be interesting to see if they do stop it.
I just searched the thread and I actually haven't used separatist or secession at all, except for those two posts above which were only because you brought up the perjorative perception thing. So I can't really stop it I am afraid, any more than I can stop beating my wife. And I am not about to start using them now.

I had no idea it was banned in the House of Commons! Talk about not mentioning the war . . .
 
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No, I see you didn't - I was only responding to the last message.

Separatist and separation are considered to be so derogatory that MPs have been banned from using the words in Westminster. They were previously doing so continually, in a deliberate attempt to offend. The "deliberate attempt to offend" was why it was banned.

If people want to go on using the s-words that's their prerogative. However, continuing to use a term once it has been explained to you how offensive it is, is open to its own interpretation.

Rolfe.
 
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