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Implications of Scottish Independence

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That's a no then. Anyone else?


Um no, it's a Yes.

But if you're looking for something specifically uttered by Salmond himself, then this took me.... 12 seconds to find. It's just one example of course:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/pol...s-mean-deeper-tax-rises-or-spending-cuts.html


See: "Vote Yes and there'll be loads of lovely freebies on offer" appears to an objective observer as either a naked bribe or a piece of political sophistry. Or both. Either way, he is, as Alan Clark once memorably said, being "economical with the actualité".
 
I can't answer for the Catalans or Bavarians, but in the 2011 Scottish Census a question on the respondents' national identity elicited this response. Here are the corresponding figures for England and Wales. So what you call fashionable nonsense regarding nations is the majority view in Great Britain, it is clear.

Even unionists in Scotland do not presume to say that Scotland is not a country, and that it's mere fashionable nonsense to call the Scots a nation. What they say is that the interests of the Scottish country and nation, and of other countries and nations, are best served by the Union with England. http://bettertogether.net/pages/about

This I disagree with, but that is what they say. If they said what you are saying, the outcome of the referendum would not be in doubt.



I would strongly suggest that the Better Together propaganda is explicitly designed to attempt to reclaim the word (and concept) of "nation" as it applies to Scotland. I suggest that what they are trying to do, in effect, is say to Scottish voters: "Hey, we view Scotland as a strong, proud and independent nation too! But it's perfectly OK to speak (and think) in these terms about Scotland and still be in favour of remaining part of the UK!"

So I think that the term "nation" has been very carefully chosen in that context. This doesn't make it any more or less correct (and it's factually incorrect to refer to Scotland as a nation). I believe that some Cornish nationalists/separatists like to refer to the "nation of Cornwall". That doesn't make it a factual nation now, does it?
 
A lot of the Unionists do not mention he said UK should stay in the EU.

Funny that eh?


  1. Obama was asked to say that by David Cameron
  2. A BBC journalist was then primed to ask the question to trigger his response
  3. He delivered his prepared line with a remarkable degree of hesitancy, even missing out a word
  4. He was a lot more emphatic about wanting the UK to stay in the EU than about Scotland's decision, which he actually said was a matter for the Scots themselves
  5. Better Together had prior notice of what he was going to say and had leaflets pre-printed, showing Obama's iconic "HOPE" poster with the "HOPE" altered to "NOPE" (some would say that was a bit of an own goal)
  6. The BBC were so keen to run with this they got Brian Taylor to wave the leaflets gloatingly in front of the cameras within a remarkably short time of Obama's words
That's the sort of news manipulation that we have to put up with all the time.

http://wingsoverscotland.com/the-morning-after-the-day-before/
http://wingsoverscotland.com/an-actual-letter-from-america/

Interesting perspective from Derek Bateman too. We're brushed aside because we're not an independent state, but once we are we will be accorded the same respect as the rest of them.

http://derekbateman.co.uk/2014/06/08/what-a-state/

Rolfe.
 
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I would strongly suggest that the Better Together propaganda is explicitly designed to attempt to reclaim the word (and concept) of "nation" as it applies to Scotland. I suggest that what they are trying to do, in effect, is say to Scottish voters: "Hey, we view Scotland as a strong, proud and independent nation too! But it's perfectly OK to speak (and think) in these terms about Scotland and still be in favour of remaining part of the UK!

So I think that the term "nation" has been very carefully chosen in that context. This doesn't make it any more or less correct (and it's factually incorrect to refer to Scotland as a nation). I believe that some Cornish nationalists/separatists like to refer to the "nation of Cornwall". That doesn't make it a factual nation now, does it?
Wow! These deceitful propagandists bamboozling the Scottish people are the side you support!?!

Whether Cornwall is a country or not has nothing to do with the Scottish situation. You can give words whatever meaning you want, like Humpty Dumpty in Wonderland. But the English people, the Scottish people, and even Scottish Unionists disagree with you. You suggest that the unionists are propagandists deceiving the Scottish people, if perhaps for the latter's own good; but even though I oppose the unionists, I wouldn't carry my hostility so far as to attribute such cynical duplicity to them.

Can you believe they're lying to the Scottish people about the union being the best place for a "proud nation", yet still think they're right? Should you not be insisting that they say: "Scotland is no more a country than Hampshire, so cut out this nonsense about independence"?
 
Obama was asked to say that by David Cameron.
Did Obama come out with the Better Together line that the Union has been the best political arrangement bar none, for more than three hundred years? I'd love to hear a US president say that. He would then logically require to bring the rebellious colonies back to their former allegiance to that union.
 
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Why would he?

Plus you know things have changed a tad over the last 300 years or so... which I had hope those campaigning for the Yes campaign realised.. Or is the Yes campaign voting for the return of governance in Scotland that existed prior to the union?
 
Wow! These deceitful propagandists bamboozling the Scottish people are the side you support!?!

Whether Cornwall is a country or not has nothing to do with the Scottish situation. You can give words whatever meaning you want, like Humpty Dumpty in Wonderland. But the English people, the Scottish people, and even Scottish Unionists disagree with you. You suggest that the unionists are propagandists deceiving the Scottish people, if perhaps for the latter's own good; but even though I oppose the unionists, I wouldn't carry my hostility so far as to attribute such cynical duplicity to them.

Can you believe they're lying to the Scottish people about the union being the best place for a "proud nation", yet still think they're right? Should you not be insisting that they say: "Scotland is no more a country than Hampshire, so cut out this nonsense about independence"?



Gosh, this is a strawman argument in a number of different ways. Where shall I start?

Well firstly, I don't "support" the No side of this debate. While I do personally hold the view that both Scotland and the rest of the UK would be better off if Scotland remained within the union, I certainly don't have any emotional attachment to the issue (as the word "support" clearly implies). A number of people on this thread - me included - have tried to help you (and others) understand that our primary goal in participating here is to try to have a decent debate about the issues, and that by no means entails or implies taking a partisan position. The fact that most of the ridiculous rhetoric and embarrassing economic illiteracy is being displayed by those who do hold a partisan "Yes" position in this debate is merely coincidental :D

Secondly, yes you certainly can give words any meaning you want. I could term myself Emperor of India if I wanted. It doesn't make it factually so. And by the same token, anyone who refers to Scotland as a nation is of course perfectly at liberty to do so, but it's not factually true.

Thirdly, you use the word "deception" in a most pejorative way, and in a way that was absolutely not implied in my post. The use of the word "nation" does not imply deception, even if it's factually incorrect.

And that leads onto the fourth point: having built that particular straw man, you then accuse me of some sort of hypocrisy (having of course already made the incorrect assumption that I am emotionally attached to the "No" position) in "believing" the side (i.e. BT) that is using "cynical duplicity". Utter nonsense all round, I'm afraid.

And last (but by no means least), you entirely misunderstand and/or misrepresent my argument about nation/province/region in your final paragraph, by inventing a false equivalence. You suggest that I am arguing that Scotland has no right to seek independence because it is not a nation (note, not a "country") in its own right. Entirely wrong. I believe that Scotland has every right to seek independence from the UK - self-determination is a cornerstone of modern democracy. If Cornwall (for example) sought independence, I would have no problem with them holding a referendum and the UK Govt honouring the result. Of course, there's such a poor case for Cornwall to become independent from the UK that such a referendum would never succeed - but if the majority of Cornwall inhabitants ever DID want to break away, they should be allowed to do so.

So you're totally wrong about the structure of my argument on this issue. For clarity, I'll repeat my position once again: Scotland has the right to self-determination, and if the majority desire independence from the UK, then this should be enacted (though I don't think it's in Scotland's best interests - but that's a whole other matter). And entirely aside from that, Scotland's status as of right now is that it is a region of the sovereign nation of the UK (just as England, Northern Ireland and Wales are also). It has exactly the same status in international law as Bavaria within Germany, or Corsica within France. But just as Bavaria or Corsica could, if they wished, secede from Germany and France respectively, so could Scotland from the UK. The difference, of course, is that Bavaria and Corsica both surely realise how stupid and detrimental it would be to declare independence. In Scotland, that realisation seems to be being partially buried under an avalanche of nationalist/anti-English rhetoric and chip-on-shoulder nonsense.
 
Why would he?

Plus you know things have changed a tad over the last 300 years or so... which I had hope those campaigning for the Yes campaign realised.. Or is the Yes campaign voting for the return of governance in Scotland that existed prior to the union?
For the governance typical of the small North European country that Scotland is. That's what the yes campaign wants.

In the early twentieth century were Polish nationalists fighting for the restoration of the feudal aristocratic pre-Partition state?
 
For the governance typical of the small North European country that Scotland is. That's what the yes campaign wants.
...snip...

Than why keep bringing up examples of governance from 300/200/100 years ago?
In the early twentieth century were Polish nationalists fighting for the restoration of the feudal aristocratic pre-Partition state?

If you are looking for an answer I'd suggest trying a thread in the "History..." section, that's where those interested in past historical events tend to hang out.
 
Than why keep bringing up examples of governance from 300/200/100 years ago?


If you are looking for an answer I'd suggest trying a thread in the "History..." section, that's where those interested in past historical events tend to hang out.
You ask
Or is the Yes campaign voting for the return of governance in Scotland that existed prior to the union?
Then you won't let me discuss "past historical events" in reply! That's profoundly silly.
 
So, Scotland is a "region of a country" is it?
Your predilection for guessing what I think remains inaccurate, and boring.
You need to get over yourself if you think you can compare us to a region.
Ha ha well I just did compare Scotland to a region of a country. Just like Rolfe compared it to part of the USSR, and to a member-state of the EU, neither of which it is.

You can dance alone with your hot button issue thanks.

The playing field is far from level.
It is about as level as they ever come, and ever have come in centuries of world history. Get over yourself.
 
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Um no, it's a Yes.

But if you're looking for something specifically uttered by Salmond himself, then this took me.... 12 seconds to find. It's just one example of course:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/pol...s-mean-deeper-tax-rises-or-spending-cuts.html


See: "Vote Yes and there'll be loads of lovely freebies on offer" appears to an objective observer as either a naked bribe or a piece of political sophistry. Or both. Either way, he is, as Alan Clark once memorably said, being "economical with the actualité".

Still a No then. You haven't found a bare faced lie yet. C'mon it should be easy.
 
Ha ha well I just did compare Scotland to a region of a country. Just like Rolfe compared it to part of the USSR, and to a member-state of the EU, neither of which it is.

You can dance alone with your hot button issue thanks.

What Rolfe posts is of no concern of mine. Comparing us to a region seems specifically designed to rile people up. Almost like a troll post.


It is about as level as they ever come, and ever have come in centuries of world history. Get over yourself.

Is it more level than the recent proportional representation playing field? You obviously do not watch Scottish TV channels or read our papers. Almost like you are posting from a position of ignorance eh?
 
Coming as it did one post after yours, I assume "Of course England is a region". I'm not sure how it could be read differently.

Funny, I thought it was a country. That was part of Great Britain. Which is part of the Union. Same as Scotland and Wales.
 
Funny, I thought it was a country. That was part of Great Britain. Which is part of the Union. Same as Scotland and Wales.
Yes, it is often looked at in that way. But the UK is currently a sovereign state. Scotland and England (&c) are not. You can still call them countries, or nations, but they're not countries in the same sense that the UK is. Semantics, of course.
 
It's not a predilection. If you believe it's inaccurate, correct me whenever you wish.
I don't believe I have ever referred to Scotland as a region. Not that I think that is sacred, though I am aware that nationalists do.

I have argued on another thread that it is not a nation state as recognised by the UN assembly, nor would it likely be ever recognised as one without the consent of the UK in respect of independence (which I am positive the UK will give if the referendum is a yes, since the UK has said so and changing its mind would be extremely damaging to itself not to mention others)
 
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