Implications of Scottish Independence

[LondonJohn]

What, like when it's pointed out that your claim that "scumbag Scottish Labour politicians" landed your daughter with a £30k bill - but that turns out to be "a mistake"?

Like when you're questioned about insults such as "one eye" which, notwithstanding your claim to contrary, is not a common phrase and is clearly a reference to Gordon Brown?

Yes, I'm not surprised you don't like it.

I realise it's eminently possible that you (and others) will think I'm wading in to defend MikeG in this thread at all costs, but I am very familiar with the use of the term "one-eyed" to mean "lacking circumspection or breadth of vision" in a figurative, rather than literal, sense.

Merriam Webster recognises this use of the term also:

One-eyed
2: lacking breadth of vision : narrow in outlook <our naïve submission to the one-eyed methodology of the physical sciences — Lewis Mumford>

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/one-eyed


When I read MikeG's use of the term, I immediately saw it as being used in this definition, and I most definitely did not read it as any sort of reference to Gordon Brown's partial blindness.

(As an aside, and somewhat topically in light of his recent controversy, BBC Top Gear presenter Jeremy Clarkson got into a whole bunch of trouble when, in an Australian tour to promote Top Gear, he referred to then-PM Gordon Brown as a "one-eyed Scottish idiot". In that instance, Clarkson definitely was not referring to Brown's figurative lack of breadth of outlook, but rather he was specifically referring to Brown's physical eye problems.)

 

[Rolfe]

Caramel has an appointment with a veterinary ophthalmologist on Monday and an enucleation on account of an intra-ocular tumour seems to be on the cards. So I'm outta here until lines like "one-eyed" have sunk down the thread a bit. Just a slightly sensitive point at the moment.

OK, he's a cat. I'm still slightly upset about it. Might not have been a cat. My Mum only had the sight of one eye in her latter years too. I think it's a pity when hate and bile blind people to the possible implications of what they're saying. Pun maybe intended or maybe not, you choose.

Rolfe.

 

[Architect]

I realise it's eminently possible that you (and others) will think I'm wading in to defend MikeG in this thread at all costs, but I am very familiar with the use of the term "one-eyed" to mean "lacking circumspection or breadth of vision" in a figurative, rather than literal, sense.

Merriam Webster recognises this use of the term also:

One-eyed
2: lacking breadth of vision : narrow in outlook <our naïve submission to the one-eyed methodology of the physical sciences — Lewis Mumford>

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/one-eyed


When I read MikeG's use of the term, I immediately saw it as being used in this definition, and I most definitely did not read it as any sort of reference to Gordon Brown's partial blindness.

One of the things about not having English as a first language is a tendency, in my experience, for fellow Gaels watching out for such misunderstandings. I therefore have a dog-eared copy of Collins here in the study and it only seems to have the normal definition (i.e. one eye).

Alas we don't have an OED, however my understanding is that Merriam-Webster is an American publication and hence I would question the extent to which your defence of MikeG is meritted.

As a slightly lighter aside, Merriam notes burgle (the normal UK and Commonwealth verb) as back formed from burglar circa 1870 - which I understand to be correct - but does not so annotate burglarize (the normal US usage) despite its first use notes as being 1871 and presumably also back formed. Perhaps not the most even-handed interrogation there, methinks.

 

[LondonJohn]

One of the things about not having English as a first language is a tendency, in my experience, for fellow Gaels watching out for such misunderstandings. I therefore have a dog-eared copy of Collins here in the study and it only seems to have the normal definition (i.e. one eye).

Alas we don't have an OED, however my understanding is that Merriam-Webster is an American publication and hence I would question the extent to which your defence of MikeG is meritted.

As a slightly lighter aside, Merriam notes burgle (the normal UK and Commonwealth verb) as back formed from burglar circa 1870 - which I understand to be correct - but does not so annotate burglarize (the normal US usage) despite its first use notes as being 1871 and presumably also back formed. Perhaps not the most even-handed interrogation there, methinks.

The OED online is subscription-only. However, the Collins dictionary (UK English) includes in its examples of the usage of "one-eyed" the following figurative uses:

"By all means, have a rational argument about this subject, but don't propose one-eyed statements as theological argument."

"I am pleased Australia's sports ministers rejected the crazy character assassination by radical one-eyed people against teenage boxing."

"I was approaching life like a single man, blissfully unconcerned about marital responsibilities - the original one-eyed jerk."

Incidentally, the last quote is from the autobiography of English cricketer Ian Botham - a book that would primarily have been intended for consumption by UK audiences. It's therefore apparent that not only did the author recognise and use this definition of the term, but also the book's editors and publisher must have reasoned that the term would have been sufficiently understandable to the target readership (and that they wouldn't have thought Botham was referring to some sort of physical ocular affliction....).


http://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/one-eyed


(But still, if it suits you to prefer to believe that I am either lying or exaggerating in my claim to be very familiar with the use of the term "one-eyed" in a figurative sense to mean a lack of circumspection or broad outlook, then there's not really much I can do about that......)

 

[LondonJohn]

BTW (to Architect): Is Gaelic seriously your first language? Is it what you grew up speaking at home? Presumably you were educated primarily in English (or am I wrong), perhaps with some Gaelic classes. Have you primarily spoken Gaelic socially/colloquially throughout your adult life? And what about work? Gaelic or English?

(I'm genuinely interested. My Father was Welsh and spoke fluent Welsh, but English was always his first language, and English was spoken in his household when he was young. After the age of 18 he pretty much never spoke (or used) Welsh again, except for in conversations with his grandmother.)

 

[MikeG]

........I would question the extent to which your defence of MikeG is meritted..........

You have your mind solidly made up on the intent behind my use of the phrase one-eyed. I am fairly sure there is little I can say to change your mind, as everything I say antagonises you. My assurances only bring more and more accusations.

For others in the thread, though, let me add this to what I have said previously: firstly, this expression was in common use in my up-bringing in Australia, and I have used it all my life, for decades before I had ever heard of Gordon Brown. I can't recall anyone ever not understanding it immediately, (even if they have never heard it before, presumably). Secondly, my own father only had one eye. He was blinded by a cricket ball in his 20's. I don't poke fun at any disabled people, let alone those with the same disability as my father.

 

[Francesca R]

So with this confusion about the "west lothian" aspect of tuition fees: to object to that is pretty much to favour independence or to favour cancelling the devolved Scottish government. It is an inbuilt artefact of the system, and does nnot warrant designating anybody as scumbags by itself

Under a devolved administration, I fail to see that there could be any rational objection to the Scottish policy on fees not applying to students from outside Scotland. It would be excessively daft for that exclusion not to be in there (and would bankrupt any exchequer that tried it I suspect)

And as usual, the standard thinking on the distributional equity of tuition fees is ass-backwards, but that's been dealt with in other topics.

 

[MikeG]

A partial and biased view of the position. Let's remind ourselves of what really happened.

One that accords exactly with what you wrote:

........the legislation only just passed.In the face of the rebellion, Scottish MPs where whipped into voting for the motion. The SNP and Scottish Liberal MPs voted against.

Now people might feel that they were badly let down, and they're right. They were badly let down by the Labour Party and the Westminster system.......

 

[Darat]

I find it amazing that someone brought up in the UK doesn't know the probverb "in the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king". One of the common meanings of that phrase is based on the meaning that Mike s using.

 

[Architect]

BTW (to Architect): Is Gaelic seriously your first language? Is it what you grew up speaking at home? Presumably you were educated primarily in English (or am I wrong), perhaps with some Gaelic classes. Have you primarily spoken Gaelic socially/colloquially throughout your adult life? And what about work? Gaelic or English?

(I'm genuinely interested. My Father was Welsh and spoke fluent Welsh, but English was always his first language, and English was spoken in his household when he was young. After the age of 18 he pretty much never spoke (or used) Welsh again, except for in conversations with his grandmother.)

Erm....yes but functionally bilingual, yes, primary was in Gaelic but secondary school was mostly in English, yes, English.

 

[Architect]

I find it amazing that someone brought up in the UK doesn't know the probverb "in the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king". One of the common meanings of that phrase is based on the meaning that Mike s using.

With respect, no, that isn't the same usage as MikeG claims.

 

[MikeG]

With respect, no, that isn't the same usage as MikeG claims.

No sign of "sorry if I misinterpreted" or "even if you meant X then Y" or "I'll take your word for it, but perhaps you could be clearer next time". No. Just "the usage Mike claims". If I said that grass was green you would find a way of arguing with me.


I have actually used the phrase before, in a reply to you:

The article isn't about the referendum in Scotland, but a proposal (the weakness of which is irrelevant) for a vote in Shetland and Orkney. Another fail for anyone other than the one-eyed.

Why didn't you kick up such a fuss back then?

 

[The Don]

With respect, no, that isn't the same usage as MikeG claims.

I'm British and have lived my entire life in the UK and was perfectly familiar with the phrase "one eyed" as used by MikeG. If people want to be outraged by this phrase then that's their perogative and personally I am sorry for any offence caused but it does make discourse difficult when apparently innocuous phrases are prohibited because of the potential for offence.


Btw, did we ever have a discussion about the flaws, or otherwise, in the Citibank study on the wisdom of a Scotland/UK currency union ?

 

[Francesca R]

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That the entire pro-independence contingent of the forum lapsed into utter silence rather than challenge anything at all in the citigroup analysis some pages back, is informative about this "cold hard numbers" business.

 

[Darat]

With respect, no, that isn't the same usage as MikeG claims.

Yes it is. The saying has generally two meanings here's a link http://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/in_the_land_of_the_blind,_the_one-eyed_man_is_king

 

[Francesca R]

(Thread on university tuition fees)

 

[Darat]

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You are being silly, it obviously needs no rebuttal; it doesn't promise a land of milk and honey for nuScotland therefore it is wrong. QED.

 

[Rolfe]

I realise it's been some time, but it's also been a bit of a running snipe in the intervening period. This is what people see when the term "one-eyed" is used in this context.

Indeed. The only possible reason that the gov. perists with PFI (which is now widely discredited - see just about any issue of private eye) is that it means that one-eyed porridge-wog can hide untold £billions of debt off the balance sheet, thus maintaining the illusion that he is some kind of economic genius and not a complete doofuss who sold the family silver and still left us with so much debt its going to take generations to pay off.

/rant.

The criticisms of Brown's economic abilities were absolutely justified. It was the racist insults that accompanied them that weren't so classy.

Rolfe.

 

[Francesca R]

I will conclude that it is reasonable to suppose that Mike G was not invoking Mr Brown's partial sight as a rationale for discrediting the arguments in favour of Scottish independence . . .

 

[MikeG]

........This is what people see when the term "one-eyed" is used in this context..........

Says the elected representative of "people".

I say again, that is not how I used the phrase. I was unaware of any others having used the phrase pejoratively with regards to Gordon Brown, and my own father only had one eye. Any chance some of you could give up this ridiculous campaign about a common expression, and focus on, say the West Lothian question?