Impact of California drought?

[Dr. Imago]

Plugging them into each other doesn't change either of those facts.

No, it provides water. Net energy zero.

~Dr. Imago

 

[ThunderChunky]

Yes, we should all reduce our personal water budgets. Don't maintain a lawn, that's 50% of the battle right there. Buy better toilet flush mechanisms. Get an efficient clothes washer. Take short showers. Give up golf, obviously.

Literally a drop in the bucket. What we need to do is figure out how to farm with less water, because that's 80% of all water use in the state. You'd be much better off if you stopped eating almonds and rice grown in the state than giving up golf.

 

[ThunderChunky]

No, it provides water. Net energy zero.

~Dr. Imago

But the energy could be used for something else. Building a power plant to power something doesn't magically make that something not consume power. It's like financing the interest on credit card debt with a second job and claiming that the debt isn't costing you anything.

 

[Warmer1]

It's trading energy for water. The people actually need more energy, but it's only agriculture that needs more water. Unless agriculture is paying for it, building and running desalination plants is an agricultural subsidy.

Doesn't the Fed just have to run the printing presses a little longer?

I remember when I asked why growing pineapple on Maui was subsidized costing $1 million a year (1995) and the answer was that if all the sugar cane workers were let go that the social costs of welfare, incarceration, loss of home values etc. would cost more.

I can see building desalination capacity and subsidizing farmers not making much sense, but if a country is just printing money out of thin air anyway, and rural property values will plummet, job losses and crime etc. escalate then maybe desalination might make sense? Probably not but I'm not sure what the costs would be to desalinate enough for irrigation.

There are probably lots of reasons why it's a bad idea.

 

[Warmer1]

OT

Remember that the Fed printed $10 billion just for their own slush fund so the money is no big deal.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/09/27/us-usa-qe3-pimco-special-report-idUSBRE98Q0E620130927

The firm (Pimco) had brought in former Fed Chairman Alan Greenspan as a consultant

In December 2008, the Fed hired Pimco

Gross's top lieutenant, Mohamed El-Erian, serves on an advisory committee to the central bank's most important branch, the New York Fed. Pimco's global strategic adviser, economist Richard Clarida, has known Fed Chairman Ben Bernanke for three decades

Pimco's mortgage plays in 2009 and 2012 - when Fed buying was heavy - handed the firm and investors in the Total Return Fund a gain of $10 billion, excluding net investment flows, according to Reuters estimates

 

[ben m]

Literally a drop in the bucket. What we need to do is figure out how to farm with less water, because that's 80% of all water use in the state. You'd be much better off if you stopped eating almonds and rice grown in the state than giving up golf.

Yes, of course. theprestige shouldn't feel guilty about being a one-person-sized water user in California.

On the other hand, the Central Valley is objectively a good place to do agriculture---great soil, great climate, decent water supply---and agricultural production is objectively worth devoting water to. A single non-water-saving toilet can consume (uselessly) 5000 gallons of water a year. How many (non-useless) tomatoes can you grow with 5000 gallons of water?

 

[CynicalSkeptic]

I don't know the state of wave power generation but wouldn't that be a good fit if/when it becomes viable.

And with what I presume is a population increase in the middle east or at least the large growing cities (Dubai?), how are they getting fresh water?

Desalinization.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_supply_and_sanitation_in_Abu_Dhabi

 

[Dr. Imago]

But the energy could be used for something else.

Not if you need water.

Building a power plant to power something doesn't magically make that something not consume power. It's like financing the interest on credit card debt with a second job and claiming that the debt isn't costing you anything.

Saywuh?

~Dr. Imago

 

[OMGturt1es]

No it's not.

~Dr. Imago

This drought easily surpasses the last drought of historical record in '76. (http://www.drought.gov/media/eventfiles/iniguez_water year precip.png). By definition, a large portion of California is now under "Exceptional" drought-- i.e., the most extreme drought condition (http://droughtmonitor.unl.edu/Home/StateDroughtMonitor.aspx?CA). Paleoclimate data are suggesting that this drought could be the most extreme California has experienced in at least 500 years (http://newscenter.berkeley.edu/2014/01/21/states-water-woes/). And that would explain why reservoir levels are all near record lows (http://cdec.water.ca.gov/cdecapp/resapp/getResGraphsMain.action).

I'm not sure how you've come to understand that California's current conditions are within normal, observed variation, but they're not. California's current drought is the most severe Californian drought in recorded human history. This is due largely to extreme ridging off the Pacific coast-- ridging so extreme that meteorologists have dubbed it the "Ridiculously Resilient Ridge." This ridging is unprecedented in recorded history, as are it's effects on California's precipitation. On top of that, California is now warmer than it ever has been in recorded history, so the atmosphere is sucking even more moisture out of the soil. And, as I posted, there is a very real possibility that conditions like these will become more frequent and severe.

 

[Travis]

http://www.motherjones.com/environment/2014/02/wheres-californias-water-going

Check out the charts. My goodness.

 

[ben m]

Not if you need water.

Yes. A desalination plant costs energy that would have otherwise been used for something else. This is true if you don't happen to build a wind turbine, it's true if you do happen to build a wind turbine.

 

[GlennB]

http://www.motherjones.com/environment/2014/02/wheres-californias-water-going

Check out the charts. My goodness.

What on earth is happening in Palm Springs? A million golf courses that need to be kept green or something?

 

[Travis]

What on earth is happening in Palm Springs? A million golf courses that need to be kept green or something?

Heck Palm Springs has those homeowners associations that mandate large luscious lawns in the middle of a desert.

I remember about five years ago my own mom had to fight her homeowners association for the right to have a desert themed landscape in front of her house. She had to threaten legal action before they stopped insisting on a large lawn.

 

[GlennB]

Heck Palm Springs has those homeowners associations that mandate large luscious lawns in the middle of a desert.

I remember about five years ago my own mom had to fight her homeowners association for the right to have a desert themed landscape in front of her house. She had to threaten legal action before they stopped insisting on a large lawn.

Ah, are these the same people that ban the drying of clothes on washing lines because it detracts from the 'visual amenity' or whatever? Time they moved into the 21st century.

Whenever I (very rarely) see a natural green summer lawn here in Greece I wonder "How is that even possible? The water cost must be astronomical".

Any chance the state legislators might step in and ban such waste?

 

[OMGturt1es]

http://www.motherjones.com/environment/2014/02/wheres-californias-water-going

Check out the charts. My goodness.

Nice charts. Thanks for the link.

 

[Dr. Imago]

It's a supply/demand problem. Pure and simple. If you take some of the burden off of potable water by providing desalination technology for human consumption, you can be more creative in providing non-potable water for agricultural needs.

There have been longer and more sever droughts in California's history. It's cyclical by nature (literally). So, predictions about when they drought will break are not based on precedent other than they fact that they do. Predictions about the future are not reliable.

I also take objection to the term "exceptional" because it's qualitative. The next time there are the inevitable floods in the current drought riddled areas people will make all manner of excuses based on a variety of post-hoc analysis about the reasons it happened.

Tincture of time. Just wait. In a few years, we'll likely be complaining about too much rain in those same regions. In the meantime, it may be a good time to invest in almond futures.

~Dr. Imago

 

[BowlOfRed]

Some nice graphs here:
http://www.climatestations.com/

I like this one:
http://www.climatestations.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/lacv1314.gif
(This link will probably die and you'll have to go to the LA page and click the Rainfall season to date link)

 

[Newtons Bit]

Yes, of course. theprestige shouldn't feel guilty about being a one-person-sized water user in California.

On the other hand, the Central Valley is objectively a good place to do agriculture---great soil, great climate, decent water supply---and agricultural production is objectively worth devoting water to. A single non-water-saving toilet can consume (uselessly) 5000 gallons of water a year. How many (non-useless) tomatoes can you grow with 5000 gallons of water?

About 1670. Which corresponds to about a half man-year of caloric intake.

Source: http://www.ecotechwater.com/Company/watertrivia.html

 

[ThunderChunky]

It's a supply/demand problem. Pure and simple. If you take some of the burden off of potable water by providing desalination technology for human consumption, you can be more creative in providing non-potable water for agricultural needs.

There have been longer and more sever droughts in California's history. It's cyclical by nature (literally). So, predictions about when they drought will break are not based on precedent other than they fact that they do. Predictions about the future are not reliable.

I also take objection to the term "exceptional" because it's qualitative. The next time there are the inevitable floods in the current drought riddled areas people will make all manner of excuses based on a variety of post-hoc analysis about the reasons it happened.

Tincture of time. Just wait. In a few years, we'll likely be complaining about too much rain in those same regions. In the meantime, it may be a good time to invest in almond futures.

~Dr. Imago

Well, this last year was supposedly the driest on record, if conditions remain the same through october it will be the driest in the last 500 years.

http://www.latimes.com/opinion/comm...rought-20140203,0,5178537.story#ixzz2saZ2FtnI

Based on tree rings, some droughts have even lasted hundreds of years.

http://news.msn.com/in-depth/scientists-past-california-droughts-have-lasted-200-years

 

[ben m]

Heck Palm Springs has those homeowners associations that mandate large luscious lawns in the middle of a desert.

I remember about five years ago my own mom had to fight her homeowners association for the right to have a desert themed landscape in front of her house. She had to threaten legal action before they stopped insisting on a large lawn.

A Palm Springs official was quoted in the news last week, saying that this particular statistic makes them look worse than they are---she blames it on Palm Springs having huge numbers of tourists; when you calculate "water per capita", you divide net water use by the number of residents, so tourists' water use gets counted against residents.

I don't buy it---Santa Barbara and Monterey are big tourist towns too and they're doing fine on water.

But yeah, zoom in on Palm Springs in Google Maps. Lawns lawns lawns. Also, there's a pool in every backyard.