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Immortality: Jabba and Loss Leader Debate Thread

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- I think I'm missing something...
- Maybe I should liken this to a civil trial, and preponderance of evidence, instead? My claim is that the preponderance of evidence supports my immortality.
- Should I drop "essentially prove" from my original claim?


I've already likened it to a civil trial. And I've already agreed, for the sake of argument, that it is exceedingly likely that you are immortal - far greater than a preponderance of evidence, far greater than being beyond a reasonable doubt. What I'm now asking you for the third time is: why do you think that level of evidence is sufficient for a philosophical argument?
 
I've already likened it to a civil trial. And I've already agreed, for the sake of argument, that it is exceedingly likely that you are immortal - far greater than a preponderance of evidence, far greater than being beyond a reasonable doubt. What I'm now asking you for the third time is: why do you think that level of evidence is sufficient for a philosophical argument?
- My problem is that I don't understand why you're saying that it isn't. That's what I'm missing. Philosophical arguments hardly ever involve anything so supportable.
 
- My problem is that I don't understand why you're saying that it isn't. That's what I'm missing. Philosophical arguments hardly ever involve anything so supportable.


You're wrong. Philosophical arguments must be logically necessary given the truth of their premises. If the premises are true, then the conclusion must also be true. Otherwise, there is no reason to have confidence in the conclusion. This article should start you down the road to understanding validity in logic and philosophy.

Can you give examples of invalid philosophies, those whose conclusions do not follow from their premises? I doubt you can find a philosophy that was historically well-regarded that is invalid.

Your argument is invalid. You concede the same. You have only a probability that you are right. Your conclusion that you are immortal is not necessarily true.

How can you overcome the lack of logical certainty in your conclusion?
 
You're wrong. Philosophical arguments must be logically necessary given the truth of their premises. If the premises are true, then the conclusion must also be true. Otherwise, there is no reason to have confidence in the conclusion. This article should start you down the road to understanding validity in logic and philosophy.

Can you give examples of invalid philosophies, those whose conclusions do not follow from their premises? I doubt you can find a philosophy that was historically well-regarded that is invalid.

Your argument is invalid. You concede the same. You have only a probability that you are right. Your conclusion that you are immortal is not necessarily true.

How can you overcome the lack of logical certainty in your conclusion?
- But, all I'm trying to show is that one hypothesis is much more likely than the other. If my numbers are right, my conclusion is right. If I can convince members of the audience that my numbers are right, they should believe that I'm immortal. That is my objective.
- If that doesn't apply to philosophical argument, it isn't a philosophical argument I'm making.
 
- But, all I'm trying to show is that one hypothesis is much more likely than the other. If my numbers are right, my conclusion is right. If I can convince members of the audience that my numbers are right, they should believe that I'm immortal. That is my objective.
- If that doesn't apply to philosophical argument, it isn't a philosophical argument I'm making.


Why should people believe that you are immortal just because it's much more likely that you are immortal than not? You don't even claim that you are definitely immortal, only that you are very likely so.

I have a box. It has a 99% chance of holding a chocolate cake and a 1% chance of holding a rattlesnake. Now, without opening the box, I'm asking you to believe that the box has a cake. I'm asking you to pay me $10.00 for a cake that you're not sure exists. Why would you believe that there's a cake and not a snake?

And you're not asking people to pay $10.00, you're asking them to fundamentally change their life's philosophy.

So, for the fourth time, why should a we consider "near certain" to be "certain" in this case?
 
Why should people believe that you are immortal just because it's much more likely that you are immortal than not? You don't even claim that you are definitely immortal, only that you are very likely so.

I have a box. It has a 99% chance of holding a chocolate cake and a 1% chance of holding a rattlesnake. Now, without opening the box, I'm asking you to believe that the box has a cake. I'm asking you to pay me $10.00 for a cake that you're not sure exists. Why would you believe that there's a cake and not a snake?
And you're not asking people to pay $10.00, you're asking them to fundamentally change their life's philosophy.

So, for the fourth time, why should a we consider "near certain" to be "certain" in this case?
- I would believe that the box probably did contain a cake, because the prior probability that the box contained a cake was 99%...
- And if I thought that $10 was a great deal for a cake, and was sure that I could open the box without getting bitten or letting a snake out, I'd probably risk the $10 and buy the box with whatever it contained...
 
- I would believe that the box probably did contain a cake, because the prior probability that the box contained a cake was 99%...
- And if I thought that $10 was a great deal for a cake, and was sure that I could open the box without getting bitten or letting a snake out, I'd probably risk the $10 and buy the box with whatever it contained...


So, you've failed to understand my point regarding validity. In any case, your end argument would be invalid even if all your givens are true.

Let us turn to p and ~p. You have set up two conditions: Either you are mortal in a random universe or you are immortal in a random universe. You are, however, wrong about the definition of ~p. If P is "I am mortal in a random universe," then ~p is any possibility other than that you are mortal in a random universe.

The universe could be nonrandom. It could be that, were we to run the universe from the beginning, it would necessarily produce you. Just because you are a small part in the universe doesn't mean you are not necessary. So, you need evidence that the universe is random and not wholly deterministic if you want to rule that out.

It could be that the universe is only half an hour old, having been created fully formed including all people with all their memories earlier this morning. If this is so, then there's nothing really amazing about you existing right now. No number of coincidences created you.

It could be that the universe is finite and that you, while not immortal, are destined to live for 51% of the life of the universe.

You have said that ~p = immortality because that's the condition you want to think about. But that's not how you define a negation.

So, what you have proven, if anything at all, is that it is very likely that something other than your mortality in a random universe is happening.

The only way that your immortality could be the only negation of mortality in a random universe is if every other choice were impossible. Can you rule out as impossible that the universe was formed half an hour ago? Can you rule out as impossible that we live in a deterministic universe?

I don't think you can. And this becomes the most seriously insurmountable problem of your philosophy. You only have one data point: you now exist. What can be ruled out? Can we tell if you were a random occurrence or a necessary one? Not unless we run the universe over from the beginning? Can we tell if the universe was fully formed as it is half an hour ago? Certainly not from within the universe.

You may argue that these are not the scientific model, and you would be right. But we're not arguing whether p is p. We're talking about whether "immortality" is sufficient to form the set of all ~p. Remember, immortality is just as unlikely as the universe being a half-hour old.

Is immortality an impossible condition? I think it is. It' certainly an impossible condition to test. There is no mechanism known by which a "soul" could survive the death of the body. There is no mechanism known by which a "soul" can be separated from the body. The impossibility of immortality, however, is not fatal to your argument. Your argument already died by being an invalid conclusion drawn from a logical error.

So then we fall back on the information we can at least test. What is testable is that in a very large, very old, seemingly random universe, you came to exist. With that as the only information we have, we cannot say very much. Certainly your existence right now is consistent with the workings of a random universe.

Does the fact of your existence give us any reason to discard what we can testably verify about the universe? It does not. Is Gena Davis' Oscar inconsistent with her being a generally bad actress? No. Is Barack Obama's presidency inconsistent with the fact that fewer than one in 300,000 million Americans is President? No. Your existence is consistent with the way in which we have learned the world works.

So, we have high confidence in P, being that you appear to exist in a universe that appears random. We have low confidence in ~P, being everything else. Even if we had high confidence in ~P, you have not given us any reason to prefer one subset of ~P (your immortality) over any other subset.

An untrue premise combined with an illogical definition to produce an admittedly invalid conclusion - you have failed to establish the truth of your concept.
 
So, you've failed to understand my point regarding validity. In any case, your end argument would be invalid even if all your givens are true.

Let us turn to p and ~p. You have set up two conditions: Either you are mortal in a random universe or you are immortal in a random universe. You are, however, wrong about the definition of ~p. If P is "I am mortal in a random universe," then ~p is any possibility other than that you are mortal in a random universe...
LL,
- I don't really understand your p and ~p. For me, p is the hypothesis that I will exist for only one finite life at most; and, my ~p is anything else.
- So ~p would include the possibility that I exist multiple times, but not an infinite 'number' of times, and I would not be immortal...
- For the moment, I'm happy to make my ~p hypothesis the more specific, "I will exist either continuously or multiple times.", and argue for real immortality later.
 
LL,
- I don't really understand your p and ~p. For me, p is the hypothesis that I will exist for only one finite life at most; and, my ~p is anything else.
- So ~p would include the possibility that I exist multiple times, but not an infinite 'number' of times, and I would not be immortal...
- For the moment, I'm happy to make my ~p hypothesis the more specific, "I will exist either continuously or multiple times.", and argue for real immortality later.


Then you'd be happy to be wrong. As I already explained to you, the negation of p IS NOT that you either exist continuously or multiply. It is EVERYTHING OTHER than the fact that you are mortal in a random universe. If your idea of ~p doesn't include the chance that we live in a deterministic universe, then you are wrong. Your argument is not logical. Nothing can be known about your conclusion because you have an incorrectly defined term.
 
Oh, I forgot:

Since P is "Jabba is mortal in a random universe," ~P must also include the chance that anybody else is mortal in a random universe. Remember, ~P is the set of all things that aren't P. So, even if you are amazed at the extraordinarily small chance that you personally exist, you cannot equate that with the chance that somebody exists.

There has been life on earth for 3 billion years, about a fifth of the life of the universe. Humans have been on earth in some form for 2 million years. There are 7 billion people here now. Even if you were not here to make your argument, there is a chance that somebody would be here to make some similar argument. Indeed, every single person you've ever met is just as rare and special as you.

So the set of ~P includes some things that we can say are definitely possible. It includes that some people may exist at some time, and we do. Thus, you cannot logically confine the set of ~P to be "Jabba is punctually or continuously immortal."
 
The forum servers are unable to keep up with the blistering pace of this thread, so it is being closed.

The discussion will resume in the original thread.
Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: zooterkin
 
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