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Immoral to violate an immoral law?

Is it immoral to violate an immoral law?

  • Yes

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • No

    Votes: 7 100.0%
  • Tom Cruise is a God

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    7
Counterpoint: Trafficking in contraband.
Yes, it's totally immoral to smuggle condoms or birth control into Afghanistan for instance. Or the Dutch and French smuggling weapons to those law-breaking rebels in the Americas in the late 1700's even though the legal government clearly said that was illegal.

Sure, I know you mean to gotcha with cocaine or stuff like that, but there are those that do feel it is immoral for the government to forbid those substances.
Alcohol of course was a big one in the US. Heck, there have been movies glorifying smuggling contraband, like Smokey and the Bandit. So again, a LOT of grey area there based upon personal morality.
 
I can imagine a number of reasons why a meth habit is stupid and destructive on the individual level, but how is it a moral issue except socially? And how does that differ from other instances in which others, or one's socially instilled principles, define your obligation to others or their institutions? I doubt whether people who indulge in dangerous drugs are doing it simply as a gesture of defiance. They seek fun, and foolishly disregard the consequence. But how does this morally differ from indulging in something that is fun, simply because it's fun, which has no such consequence?

I might see drug addiction as having a moral dimension, insofar as it involves the imposition on others, the betrayal of loved ones, and all sorts of social consequences that offend my sense of what's right and good. But at the fundamental or definitional level, how does that differ from so-called moral rules that I regard as nonsense, such as endangerment of my immortal soul, or defiance of divine fiat?

theprestige has, I think, painted himself into a corner, by stating that moral principle is exclusively individual, but then seeming to deny that it's even possible to separate that from the ideas and implications imposed by others.

If we count the social consequence of illegal behavior as a moral issue, the result is that any despotic power can declare a law, no matter how crazy, and obedience to that law becomes a moral offense simply because of the social consequence of disobeying it.

I see a hint of resemblance here to Kant's categorical imperative, and what I see as the main problem with it. Kant's idealism has much to recommend it, and like so many idealistic constructs, one can look at them as a goal on the horizon, a thing you should be aiming toward. We can try to define what is good and why it's good. But at the practical level, if it's never permissible to violate a stated moral principle, then when two moral principles conflict, no action can be right. And in the real world this happens all the time. We face not a simplistic list of goods and bads, but a constant and chaotic stew of conflicts and connections and alloys. The world is complex and confusing, run not by gods but by people, many of whom are fools, fanatics, or worse. We can say that obedience to the law has a moral component, but only in the imagination of theologians is the law written in the sky by God. Down here on earth, absolutes are very thin on the ground.
 
Yes, it's totally immoral to smuggle condoms or birth control into Afghanistan for instance. Or the Dutch and French smuggling weapons to those law-breaking rebels in the Americas in the late 1700's even though the legal government clearly said that was illegal.

Sure, I know you mean to gotcha with cocaine or stuff like that, but there are those that do feel it is immoral for the government to forbid those substances.
Alcohol of course was a big one in the US. Heck, there have been movies glorifying smuggling contraband, like Smokey and the Bandit. So again, a LOT of grey area there based upon personal morality.
I didn't mean any gotcha. Just pointing out something you already know: It's a case by case issue, not a blanket rule.
 
LIke the Underground Railroad?
It varies from case to case.

You might think the prohibition on marijuana is immoral, but the disruption of drug smuggling and its attendant violence and predation is even worse than just complying with the law. You might think that reckless driving is immoral... Except when something even more important is on the line.

Everything comes with a trade off. Not all trades are moral. There's no singular answer to the question, no matter how many hypotheticals you come up with to justify this or that particular law-breaking.
 
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Capitalism is inherently immoral, and yet it is praised as the most constructive economic system of all time.
 
It varies from case to case.

You might think the prohibition on marijuana is immoral, but the disruption of drug smuggling and its attendant violence and predation is even worse than just complying with the law. You might think that reckless driving is immoral... Except when something even more important is on the line.

Everything comes with a trade off. Not all trades are moral. There's no singular answer to the question, no matter how many hypotheticals you come up with to justify this or that particular law-breaking.
Okay, but what about the Underground Railroad? That was the case I asked about.
 
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It varies from case to case.

You might think the prohibition on marijuana is immoral, but the disruption of drug smuggling and its attendant violence and predation is even worse than just complying with the law. You might think that reckless driving is immoral... Except when something even more important is on the line.

Everything comes with a trade off. Not all trades are moral. There's no singular answer to the question, no matter how many hypotheticals you come up with to justify this or that particular law-breaking.
I think I actually am in agreement here except on a semantic issue. I believe obeying the law is a moral act only in the sense that it is a complex issue that includes a moral component. I think if you consider the issue of obeying the law as inherently a moral act, there is an implication, at least, that the act has a meaning apart from its content. I'm not sure I can explain it quite right here, but let us imagine that a theist declares that the choice between faith and apostasy is a binary moral act. Some do, I think. And if that faith is in the kind of god usually cited in such instances, similar to the Abrahamic one, the statement can be taken as true, since that God is always right, and obedience to that God is always the correct moral choice. You can disagree with the statement, but if you believe in that God, then the choice is legitimately binary in the sense that it can and in fact must be made without reservations, exceptions, or any argument about content.

I do not think that lawfulness and lawlessness can ever be the same kind of choice, because laws are always a social construct, always relative and always subject to judgment as to their content, and that would be true even if you have never seen a law you didn't like, and if all laws up until now have been so wise and perfect that the choice was functionally binary, and even if the intention of the law is to promote moral behavior, and even if that intention is realized admirably. I think the moral component of lawful behavior comes from the social contract that one lives within, and the social consequences of our actions, and that it is dangerous to presume that morality is native to law.
 
Okay, but what about the Underground Railroad? That was the case I asked about.
Obviously immoral. Depraved monstrosity that did more harm to the country than the civil war. Literally a scourge on all those poor pickanninies, too stupid to understand how good they had it on the plantations. Not their fault, though, it's not like God made them as smart as people. No, I blame the antisocial white racists in the north who'd ship darkies around in railroad cars (!!!) just to undermine the economy of their betters. Northern abolitionists were worse than PETA, as far as I'm concerned. Even PETA is more honest about what they do with unwanted animals. As far as I'm concerned, the Underground Railroad is exhibit A for why we should obey the law no matter what. I can't believe I have to explain this to you.
 
Obviously immoral. Depraved monstrosity that did more harm to the country than the civil war. Literally a scourge on all those poor pickanninies, too stupid to understand how good they had it on the plantations. Not their fault, though, it's not like God made them as smart as people. No, I blame the antisocial white racists in the north who'd ship darkies around in railroad cars (!!!) just to undermine the economy of their betters. Northern abolitionists were worse than PETA, as far as I'm concerned. Even PETA is more honest about what they do with unwanted animals. As far as I'm concerned, the Underground Railroad is exhibit A for why we should obey the law no matter what. I can't believe I have to explain this to you.
I'm going to be charitable and assume that this is a poor attempt at sarcasm.
 
I didn't mean any gotcha. Just pointing out something you already know: It's a case by case issue, not a blanket rule.
So your counterpoint to my claim that the morality of obeying laws is not a black and white situation but something that depends on the person and situation is agreeing with me. How is that then a counterpoint?
Oh well.
 
Putting it in terms of morality actually clouds the issue, partly because that is a subjective term. An individual may think a particular law is immoral and hence he is not being immoral by breaking it. Sounds fine if you're protesting an obviously outdated law, but our sovereign citizens have that attitude about driving without a valid license or insurance. Society enforces laws, not morality (although there is obviously quite a bit of overlap).
 
Putting it in terms of morality actually clouds the issue, partly because that is a subjective term. An individual may think a particular law is immoral and hence he is not being immoral by breaking it. Sounds fine if you're protesting an obviously outdated law, but our sovereign citizens have that attitude about driving without a valid license or insurance. Society enforces laws, not morality (although there is obviously quite a bit of overlap).
Yeah; this makes it kind of fruitless to argue about in the abstract. I can think of situations where it is justifiable to break the law, but I need to know the specific law and the specific set of circumstances that make it OK to break the law. Any society needs good laws to function well, and ways to encourage people to follow the laws. Ideally you would want the vast majority to follow the law willingly because they believe it's the right way to live your life, and not just because there is a man with a badge who will arrest you if you don't. That's why we want every law to have a valid moral reason behind it. Morality is somewhat subjective, but most reasonable people at least agree on the basics.
 
Putting it in terms of morality actually clouds the issue, partly because that is a subjective term. An individual may think a particular law is immoral and hence he is not being immoral by breaking it. Sounds fine if you're protesting an obviously outdated law, but our sovereign citizens have that attitude about driving without a valid license or insurance. Society enforces laws, not morality (although there is obviously quite a bit of overlap).
Everything I've seen about sovereign citizens, at traffic stops and in court, leads me to believe that they are doing it to avoid responsibility, not to uphold a moral principle.

But yes, morality is subjective. Ultimately, only you can decide what is and isn't moral, and what you will do about it. Society can't tell you what's moral, only what society will enforce.
 
..and since people will always re-interpret their thoughts and actions according to new situations and information, they can't even hold themselves to their own moral standard in any realistic or objective way.
In other words, if morality is subjective, it is indistinguishable from non-existent.
 
Putting it in terms of morality actually clouds the issue, partly because that is a subjective term. An individual may think a particular law is immoral and hence he is not being immoral by breaking it. Sounds fine if you're protesting an obviously outdated law, but our sovereign citizens have that attitude about driving without a valid license or insurance. Society enforces laws, not morality (although there is obviously quite a bit of overlap).
True.
 

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