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imaginary pedophile

I think these kinds of silly cases are evidence that we've gone way past protecting actual children, which is supposed to be the justification for these laws in the first place, and moved on to prosecuting people for thought crime.

I'm particularly uncomfortable with this trend because, along with terrorists, paedophiles are the boogyman used to push every new attempt to invade the privacy of citizens in the First World. If someone's trying to censor or spy on the internet, you can bet they'll justify it in terms of catching terrorists and paedophiles.
 
I'm particularly uncomfortable with this trend because, along with terrorists, paedophiles are the boogyman used to push every new attempt to invade the privacy of citizens in the First World. If someone's trying to censor or spy on the internet, you can bet they'll justify it in terms of catching terrorists and paedophiles.

Pretty much:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...ers-to-monitor-internet-users/article1188484/

At least when conservatives are in power. Thankfully, given the current political reality in Canada (tenuous minority government), it will be difficult to get this bill passed.
 
It is a difficult thing to know where do you draw the line. If I take a picture of my nude wife, then make her look like a child, then give it to someone, is that CP?

But then if I wrote and sold stories about my serial killing fantasy that would not be a crime (plenty of murder mysteries). But doing the same for my child sex fantasy would be a crime. What is the difference?
 
Surely the demand for the "product" prompts the production?

Only if it's being sold. I don't really have a problem with charging people for *buying* it, for that reason. I'm sure that someone somewhere is selling it, but I'm also sure there are people distributing it without selling it [Basing these assumptions on pretty much every other thing on the internet ever].
 
I doubt it would bother me if I knew people who had pedophile fantasies so long as they didn't have any real cp and didn't actually hurt children.

It would bother me to the point where I would avoid them. I wouldn't scream for them to be thrown in jail, though, until they actually did something.

The illegality of child pornography made much, much more sense when it first happened in the 70's. Back then a customer would have to purchase the material, which meant they were directly financing the production of said material. "Production of said material" here meaning abuse of children, since you have to abuse a child to make kiddy porn.

Nowadays, given that one can take a picture with a digital camera and instantly post it to the web for free, it seems that most people who get caught with one or two such photos or videos got them off Limewire or something, and I strongly suspect that the numbers often cited about child pornography being a "billion-dollar industry" are pretty much nothing but hot air. However, being busted with one or two photos actually rarely happens, and when it does it's usually in tandem with some other offense, like groping or actually trying to pick up a kid or something like that. No, by and large when you read the news about kiddy porn busts, it usually involves either someone who was actually making the stuff himself (or herself*), or a couple dozen people from various countries busted at the same time and belonging to some kind of internet "club"; and in the latter case the police don't just find one or two videos, they find entire hard drives full of the stuff - gigabytes. In such cases, I don't think it's an issue of punishing "consumers". I don't think it's likely a mere "consumer" could end up with a collection like that unless he was directly linked somehow with a producer, in which case in my opinion he becomes an accessory, analogous to "knowing receipt of stolen property". By way of example, one of those international busts I heard about involved a club that required new members to submit so-many articles of "new" child pornography. As I understand it, they never specified how you were supposed to get ahold of the new material, but the implication is pretty obvious.


*Perhaps the most recent kiddy porn case of note involves some Colin Blanchard in England. Police found a number of photos, among them some that seemed to have been taken by camera phone. The camera phone images were of "bare torsos" of children - not technically illegal in and of themselves; however, the images seemed to indicate they were taken at a nursery school. Police managed to locate the nursery school and found the original images on the camera phone of one of the workers, Vanessa George. When police arrested her, they seized her home computer and found a CD full of child porn of a "very serious nature". More people have been arrested since.

As you see, on some occasions, being able to seize computers, etc when "mere images" are found allows police to actively track down producers, or rescue actual children who are being abused, or who are at immediate risk. None of the "serious nature" images found so far were made using the nursery school attendees - but that worker already had pictures of many of them at least half-naked. Considering she had a whole lot of "real" child porn on her computer already (that she was trading with "consumers"), the implications of what the very near future held aren't pleasant to think about, right? The illegality of possessing child pornography made this investigation possible.
 
It would bother me to the point where I would avoid them. I wouldn't scream for them to be thrown in jail, though, until they actually did something.

The illegality of child pornography made much, much more sense when it first happened in the 70's. Back then a customer would have to purchase the material, which meant they were directly financing the production of said material. "Production of said material" here meaning abuse of children, since you have to abuse a child to make kiddy porn.

Nowadays, given that one can take a picture with a digital camera and instantly post it to the web for free, it seems that most people who get caught with one or two such photos or videos got them off Limewire or something, and I strongly suspect that the numbers often cited about child pornography being a "billion-dollar industry" are pretty much nothing but hot air. However, being busted with one or two photos actually rarely happens, and when it does it's usually in tandem with some other offense, like groping or actually trying to pick up a kid or something like that. No, by and large when you read the news about kiddy porn busts, it usually involves either someone who was actually making the stuff himself (or herself*), or a couple dozen people from various countries busted at the same time and belonging to some kind of internet "club"; and in the latter case the police don't just find one or two videos, they find entire hard drives full of the stuff - gigabytes. In such cases, I don't think it's an issue of punishing "consumers". I don't think it's likely a mere "consumer" could end up with a collection like that unless he was directly linked somehow with a producer, in which case in my opinion he becomes an accessory, analogous to "knowing receipt of stolen property". By way of example, one of those international busts I heard about involved a club that required new members to submit so-many articles of "new" child pornography. As I understand it, they never specified how you were supposed to get ahold of the new material, but the implication is pretty obvious.


*Perhaps the most recent kiddy porn case of note involves some Colin Blanchard in England. Police found a number of photos, among them some that seemed to have been taken by camera phone. The camera phone images were of "bare torsos" of children - not technically illegal in and of themselves; however, the images seemed to indicate they were taken at a nursery school. Police managed to locate the nursery school and found the original images on the camera phone of one of the workers, Vanessa George. When police arrested her, they seized her home computer and found a CD full of child porn of a "very serious nature". More people have been arrested since.

As you see, on some occasions, being able to seize computers, etc when "mere images" are found allows police to actively track down producers, or rescue actual children who are being abused, or who are at immediate risk. None of the "serious nature" images found so far were made using the nursery school attendees - but that worker already had pictures of many of them at least half-naked. Considering she had a whole lot of "real" child porn on her computer already (that she was trading with "consumers"), the implications of what the very near future held aren't pleasant to think about, right? The illegality of possessing child pornography made this investigation possible.



What is your take on distributing drawings and/or stories?
 
It would bother me to the point where I would avoid them. I wouldn't scream for them to be thrown in jail, though, until they actually did something.

Understandable, although I'd quibble that until should be unless.

As you see, on some occasions, being able to seize computers, etc when "mere images" are found allows police to actively track down producers, or rescue actual children who are being abused, or who are at immediate risk. None of the "serious nature" images found so far were made using the nursery school attendees - but that worker already had pictures of many of them at least half-naked. Considering she had a whole lot of "real" child porn on her computer already (that she was trading with "consumers"), the implications of what the very near future held aren't pleasant to think about, right? The illegality of possessing child pornography made this investigation possible.

I'm not sure if you were addressing this to me or not, but I'm not opposed to any of that. I was arguing about illustrations/cartoons/stories/etc. where no real children were involved at any point.
 
There actually was a case somewhere similar to this. It was on Neal Boortz website a few years ago where a man was on probation for having CP wrote a fantsy story about a fictional girl and himself. The story was discovered and the man went back to jail.

I have book by Aniais Nin called "Little Birds." It is a collection of short stories. The title story is about a man who is a pedophile, and spends his day watching school girls in the playground (they are the "Little Birds").

I always think of that when I read about these cases.
 
The crimes related to having or distributing child porn exist to stop child abuse. Or at least they should. If no children are being harmed, there's no point in enforcing it just because it's creepy.

So you don't believe in obsenity laws then.
 
So you don't believe in obsenity laws then.

I don't think obscenity laws apply because it's not public.

TO be honest, I'm mainly against these types of laws because of their wider implications. For example child porn is used as a default reason for increasing surveillance, logging and censorship on the internet, which I think is a stupid idea. As if people who do illegal things won't start encrypting and anonymizing their communications making the whole thing pointless.
 

Covered over here; to wit, throwing someone in jail for drawings or stories is dumb.

To the linked post, though, I'd like to append that it's pedophilia - the whole sexual attraction to children thing - that bothers me; to me it's repugnant whether the pedophile uses real kiddy porn, or comic-style drawings of adults having sex with kids, or plain text stories of same as an outlet. However, last I checked, my finding a certain behavior repugnant doesn't make that behavior illegal. All the same, if I know someone's a pedophile, I can't pretend it doesn't bother me just because they haven't diddled any kids yet, because it does. Mea culpa. But...

Real child pornography is illegal because people are actually harmed by it, in one way or another. Nobody is really harmed by drawings or text stories. I know some have tried to justify making them illegal by claiming that they "encourage" pedophiles to try things with real kids, but I find that notion spurious - just as spurious as the opposite notion, that the material prevents child abuse by "giving potential offenders an alternative outlet". The way I see it, someone who isn't of a mind to actually harm a child won't be convinced to do it by a comic book, and if someone IS of a mind to actually harm a child, a comic book would never be enough to keep them from acting on their hankering.
 
Not sure what he was arrested for, what law he broke, but he plead to distribution of cp. There must be more to this story. A man can't be arrested for sharing thoughts.
The article clearly states the "porn" he shared "was the product of his imagination."

And let's not forget this is Canada. The Mark Steyn/Maclean's debacle should be proof enough that what you say can certainly land you in hot water up there.
 
That's a tough one. On the one hand he's sick in the head but on the other, we can't be putting people in jail for thought crimes.

"role playing which crossed over the criminal line."

While your at it you might as well jail everyone who has engaged in rape or schoolgirl fantasies.
 
However, being busted with one or two photos actually rarely happens, and when it does it's usually in tandem with some other offense, like groping or actually trying to pick up a kid or something like that. No, by and large when you read the news about kiddy porn busts, it usually involves either someone who was actually making the stuff himself (or herself*), or a couple dozen people from various countries busted at the same time and belonging to some kind of internet "club"; and in the latter case the police don't just find one or two videos, they find entire hard drives full of the stuff - gigabytes. In such cases, I don't think it's an issue of punishing "consumers". I don't think it's likely a mere "consumer" could end up with a collection like that unless he was directly linked somehow with a producer, in which case in my opinion he becomes an accessory, analogous to "knowing receipt of stolen property".

I agree, apart from the argument that sheer volume necessitates complicity. I've never had anything to do with the production of pornography in my life but I'm sure I could download many, many gigabytes of pornography right now if I was so inclined (and had a sufficiently fast internet connection) without paying a cent.

I'm not sure how much kiddy porn there is out there, or how high resolution it is, but if someone spent years collecting the stuff because it was their sole sexual outlet it seems at least possible that they'd end up with gigs of it without being an accomplice to the production of any.

I would be interested in seeing hard data (not unsupported claims from individual police officers, who in my experience are not rigorous in making sure the claims they make are backed up by facts) about the exact percentage of paedophiles arrested for mere possession of child porn who are later convicted of molesting actual children. If it was 100% I'd have no problem criminalising mere possession but I strongly suspect it's not, although I do suspect that those cases get more publicity than the ones where no real children have actually been harmed.

*Perhaps the most recent kiddy porn case of note involves some Colin Blanchard in England. Police found a number of photos, among them some that seemed to have been taken by camera phone. The camera phone images were of "bare torsos" of children - not technically illegal in and of themselves; however, the images seemed to indicate they were taken at a nursery school. Police managed to locate the nursery school and found the original images on the camera phone of one of the workers, Vanessa George. When police arrested her, they seized her home computer and found a CD full of child porn of a "very serious nature". More people have been arrested since.

As you see, on some occasions, being able to seize computers, etc when "mere images" are found allows police to actively track down producers, or rescue actual children who are being abused, or who are at immediate risk. None of the "serious nature" images found so far were made using the nursery school attendees - but that worker already had pictures of many of them at least half-naked. Considering she had a whole lot of "real" child porn on her computer already (that she was trading with "consumers"), the implications of what the very near future held aren't pleasant to think about, right? The illegality of possessing child pornography made this investigation possible.

The problem with that argument is that we'd no doubt catch a lot of very bad people if police were allowed to frisk people on the street at random, turn over their houses without a warrant, or for that matter if we criminalised the possession of regular pornography. Hey presto, the police could lock up and then investigate just about everyone in the world with an internet connection if they felt they needed to.

I'm not in favour of putting roadblocks in the way of criminal investigations just for the sake of it, since I've got a vested interest in seeing crime discouraged and criminals locked up, but making harmless behaviour a criminal offense just so the police can go on a fishing expedition for evidence of a real crime seems like a bad idea to me. Unless, as I said earlier, there is hard evidence that 100% of the time they go on a fishing expedition they catch a fish.
 
It is not just having fantasies that got him into trouble. It is giving them to someone else in writing. Even our forum rules forbid me to do this in a post.

2. You will not post anything that is considered pornographic, obscene, or contains excessive reference to violence and/or explicit sexual acts. This includes representational artwork as well as photographic or video media and includes linking directly to such content from the Forum


Not sure if I go to the wrong movies, but any scene showing a crime being committed is far different from what it would look like in reality. I am thinking of Kill Bill movie as an example. In Australia a movie that has sexual violence that is implied would be R rated (only people 18+ are allowed). Any stronger and it is banned.


I think there would be a vast difference between giving out a realistic description of a crime and what you can get legally.
 
Pedophiles are just one of societies' current boogeymen, whether or not the individual would ever actually harm a child or watch actual child pornography.
It's not just pedophiles, but sex offenders in general. I've got no love for them, but when we have "civil commitment" for indeterminate periods even after the offender has served their sentence, there's cause for concern. The most shocking is a law in Ohio that allows for placement on a "civil registry" names of people who haven't even been convicted of a sex offense. Don't believe me? This is sickening -- all one has to do is convince a judge (not a jury) that it is more likely than not (not quite the "beyond a reasonable doubt" stadard, is it?) the crime was committed.

McCarthy would have been proud.
 
I think there would be a vast difference between giving out a realistic description of a crime and what you can get legally.
Wikipedia and rotten.com do this on a regular basis. Hell, there's places you can go to see video of all manner of crimes being committed, but we don't lock up the providers. Nor should we.
 
Where to draw the line? Where real children are actually harmed. Drawings, fiction stories, conversations, I could care less. And if it helps someone to fantasize instead of actually harming an actual child, I'm all for it.

Hang on, do you mean that you care more about drawings, fiction stories or conversations then you actually could?
 
Wikipedia and rotten.com do this on a regular basis. Hell, there's places you can go to see video of all manner of crimes being committed, but we don't lock up the providers. Nor should we.

Not a big Ogrish.com fan, then, eh? :p

Yes you are right. I confused myself. Explicit sexual violence (which child porn is an example of) is not allowed in Australia in a movie. Sex or violence is allowed. I have a copy of the Australian guidelines.

The places you quoted would show actual violence not simulated violence.
 

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