I'm a LIBERAL!?!

[Zep]

I'll also agree that the labels are useless. For instance, I favor the death penalty, I'm against gun control, I believe in a strong military . . . what are my political leanings?

FWIW, I'm opposed to the death penalty, favour reasonable gun control, and have no problem with a strong military. Where would I fit in?

PS. The Slate quiz is highly US-centric. So what happens if you just guess the answers?

 

[SezMe]

Re: Re: Re: My 2 cents

But I think it is a myth - the assumption that government health inspectors will keep you safe. There is a certain amount of stuff in life you have to take on faith. An example of that faith would be the belief that mom and pop hotdog vendor are inclined not to sell their customers unwholesome food. You certainly don't make enough money operating a hotdog cart to be able to justify being fly by night. It is hard for me to imagine that someone would buy a hotdog cart in hopes of making a quick buck before he gets found out selling rancid hotdogs.

Yes, billy, it is a myth that inspectors "will keep you safe" but it is not a myth that inspectors will keep you safer. I do not agree that a mom and pop food vendor is the place to put your faith that they are clean. As you correctly point out, its a tough business and cutting even small corners can make the difference between success and failure. And this is a perfect example of where market feedback mechanisms and market forces will come into play. In the large cities, their clientel probably consists of tourists. If a touist gets sick back home after a couple of days, how are they going to connect it to the hot dog they ate. And, even if they do, how are they going to get that information back to the marketplace (read, the other consumers who patronize the vendor. Even local patrons are likely to be fleeting customers with little chance for interaction with other customers.

I do not want to argue that the vendor should have to get eight licenses but I do think some licensing on a health basis is reasonable.

I hold to belief that people are essentially decent though not flawless and it is only in cases where there is the opportunity for great reward (say, politics, corporate boardrooms) where essentially decent people may well be tempted to cross the line. It is funny the way we might fret about the sanitation of a corner deli and yet have relatively little concern about the motives of the people we put in positions of great power over our lives and who can benefit greatly by exploiting those positions.

Here, I am in full agreement. Legislative, administrative, and regulatory of people in positions of power is pathetic. The poor schlub hot dog vendor might upset the tummy of a patron through sloppy practice but Enron, WorldCom, etc., etc., etc., sloppy practices utterly destroy the lives, hopes and dreams of thousands upon thousands of people.

 

[Hutch]

Getting back to Roadtoad's OP, the thing is, we ALL LIBERALS now (wait a couple of moments for Luke T. and several others to recover).......OK, but in comparison to 100 years ago--or even 50.

Think about it. Women got the vote in the 1900's, Blacks got the equal opportunity that they had been guaranteed in the Constitution years before, Labor Unions got the right to organize, Social Security and Medicare were passed to provide some assurance for older/poorer Americans....

I mean, we can argue point/counterpoint as to how far we go one some of the above (Title IX, Affirmative Action, Closed Shops, funding shortfalls) but I would suggest that any "Conservative", that were to suggest as a political platform that Women should go back to the kitchen and stay out of politics, Blacks/minorities should know their place, Workers should be glad they have a job, and that Government should have no role in helping people when they retire--well, they probably couldn't get elected dogcatcher in Southern Mississippi today.

The goalposts move constantly people...and the past century has been to the left. The reaction seen these days are but a rear-guard action to try and hold the line where it's at rather than completely roll back the gains of the 20th Century.

Still, history does have a nasty habit of abhoring a status quo, so what the next Century brings remains to be seen.

IMHO as always

 

[rdtjr]

Feh! FEH! I say!

The reason that the two political parties continue to exist in this country is because we all (implicitly or explicitly) and our impotent media allow them to define all arguments as either/or black/white yes/no choices. When hardly anything complex in the known universe works on a simple 1 or 0 basis.

If we didn't all keep buying into the false dichotomies and excluding of the middle most of these asshats would be out of jobs.

How about this:

I'm pro-choice and anti-abortion

I'm for executing some people as just too dangerous to the physical well-being of the rest of society and think that the way the death penalty is applied in the U.S. is grossly flawed on average

I'm for the right to bear arms and I don't want my neighbor to own an arsenal of fully automatic weapons and high-explosives

I understand that Al-Queda prisoners captured in the "War" on Terror are not technically afforded rights as POWs under the Geneva Conventions and think it is wrong to not follow due process with even the worst of the worst of the murders and criminals in the world

I think gov't should generally shy away from regulating individuals and think that big businesses can't historically be trusted to behave responsibly

I think that our public schools aren't doing their jobs properly and public funding of private schools is not the right answer

I think everyone should be free to exercise their religious beliefs as they choose and the gov't should never be a pulpit for supporting one subset of beliefs over another

I want U.S. energy independence and think that drilling for oil in a wildlife refuge is not just a bad idea, but doesn't even help us on that score

The solutions to many of these issues listed above are actually fairly pragmatic ones. Good solutions often lay somewhere in between the two dichotomies allowed by the non-pragmatic parties. But, the guys we keep electing will never say that... No instead we get that "nuance" is bad... recognizing ambiguity is bad... better paint white or black hats onto every issue so that we can all choose sides.

Well, F U! I don't want to choose sides. I want accountability and progress, I want liberty and security... and a big F-off to all the jerks who try to convince me that I have to choose between them. And another big finger reserved for the crappy media so afraid to ask a question at a news conference... and the other finger for the so-called "public" officials who don't feel they even have to answer a question in a straight-forward manner.

And shame on all of us for letting the media feed us their tripe, for letting our elected and appointed officials (of all ideologies) treat us with contempt as if they don't have to answer to anyone, and for not demanding openess and accountability from our government. Complaceny is the ore from which a slave's chains are forged friends.

Thank you for indulging my little rant... if you bothered to read it.

 

[RandFan]

Getting back to Roadtoad's OP, the thing is, we ALL LIBERALS now (wait a couple of moments for Luke T. and several others to recover).......OK, but in comparison to 100 years ago--or even 50.

Good post.

 

[joe1347]

Feh! FEH! I say!

The reason that the two political parties continue to exist in this country is because we all (implicitly or explicitly) and our impotent media allow them to define all arguments as either/or black/white yes/no choices. When hardly anything complex in the known universe works on a simple 1 or 0 basis.

If we didn't all keep buying into the false dichotomies and excluding of the middle most of these asshats would be out of jobs.

How about this:

I'm pro-choice and anti-abortion

I'm for executing some people as just too dangerous to the physical well-being of the rest of society and think that the way the death penalty is applied in the U.S. is grossly flawed on average

I'm for the right to bear arms and I don't want my neighbor to own an arsenal of fully automatic weapons and high-explosives

I understand that Al-Queda prisoners captured in the "War" on Terror are not technically afforded rights as POWs under the Geneva Conventions and think it is wrong to not follow due process with even the worst of the worst of the murders and criminals in the world

I think gov't should generally shy away from regulating individuals and think that big businesses can't historically be trusted to behave responsibly

I think that our public schools aren't doing their jobs properly and public funding of private schools is not the right answer

I think everyone should be free to exercise their religious beliefs as they choose and the gov't should never be a pulpit for supporting one subset of beliefs over another

I want U.S. energy independence and think that drilling for oil in a wildlife refuge is not just a bad idea, but doesn't even help us on that score

The solutions to many of these issues listed above are actually fairly pragmatic ones. Good solutions often lay somewhere in between the two dichotomies allowed by the non-pragmatic parties. But, the guys we keep electing will never say that... No instead we get that "nuance" is bad... recognizing ambiguity is bad... better paint white or black hats onto every issue so that we can all choose sides.

Well, F U! I don't want to choose sides. I want accountability and progress, I want liberty and security... and a big F-off to all the jerks who try to convince me that I have to choose between them. And another big finger reserved for the crappy media so afraid to ask a question at a news conference... and the other finger for the so-called "public" officials who don't feel they even have to answer a question in a straight-forward manner.

And shame on all of us for letting the media feed us their tripe, for letting our elected and appointed officials (of all ideologies) treat us with contempt as if they don't have to answer to anyone, and for not demanding openess and accountability from our government. Complaceny is the ore from which a slave's chains are forged friends.

Thank you for indulging my little rant... if you bothered to read it.

Another good post that hits the nail on the head. In addition to the obvious exploitation by the media to only show the extreme ends (both) of the spectrum in the quest for ever higher ratings - I wonder if politicians are using the same tactic primary for media exposure and we (the citizens) pay the price.

 

[thaiboxerken]

The RR has taken over the conservative party anymore. Anyone that does not support christianity is a liberal anymore.

 

[SezMe]

Feh! FEH! I say!

I want to echo joe1347. Excellent post.

I am in agreement with significant portions of the Democratic platform. I am in agreement with significant portions of the Republican platform.

I am in disagreement with significant portions of the Democratic platform. I am in disagreement with significant portions of the Republican platform.

Hell, there are issues where I disagree with BOTH parties such as immigration, BOTH legal and illegal, redistricting, and so forth.

I believe labeling someone as "liberal" or "conservative" is a lazy person's way of avoiding a significant discussion of the issues of the day.

 

[rdtjr]

Another good post that hits the nail on the head. In addition to the obvious exploitation by the media to only show the extreme ends (both) of the spectrum in the quest for ever higher ratings - I wonder if politicians are using the same tactic primary for media exposure and we (the citizens) pay the price.

That's the thing. I don't think the problem begins with the media, it begins with the politicians. The politicians pull this crap and try to sell us these false dichotomies. The politicians feel like they don't have to be open, subject to accountability, or answer an questions from the lowly mainstream citizens. The fault of the media is that they enable this behavior.

Despite all the crying from the conservative side of the aisle about the so-called "liberal" media, the media is anything but liberal. What the media are is a bunch of cowtowing whores who will do anything to guarantee continued access so they can get their bogus stories and continue making money. The current administration is very adept at handling our panzy media under these circumstances... Ask a question we don't like? Well, we just won't call on you for questions anymore... see how your bosses like that, have a good day! Reporters are such total access whores that they play right along. It's no different from CNN not doing stories about things they saw in Iraq so that they wouldn't lose access under Saddam's regime.

It's pathetic and the 4th Estate is totally failing the American people. Of course, the media wouldn't matter if the politicians weren't almost wholly crooked, cronying, lying, shills for the influence peddlers. They continue to paint everything in black and white and treat acknowledging nuance or ambiguity as somehow weak... because they have to do so in order to stay in power. If they told the truth our two-party system would crumble over night. So, truth tellers and pragmatists are treated as liars and maniac radicals, or god-forbid painted as a "librul", and the prostitue media parrots right along. Most of us are so sick of it, or so emotionally wedded to one party that we just shrug and go along with the continuous flow of b.s. as well - often committing multiple counts of intellectual hyprocrisy along the way ourselves. None of us escape blame, but for those out there actively trying to effect change and make the system work better and more honestly on our behalf.

 

[RandFan]

That's the thing. I don't think the problem begins with the media, it begins with the politicians. The politicians pull this crap and try to sell us these false dichotomies. The politicians feel like they don't have to be open, subject to accountability, or answer an questions from the lowly mainstream citizens. The fault of the media is that they enable this behavior.

The other day I was watching TV with my extended family and lamenting the idiocy of advertising. The commercials are often very insulting I opined. "Why do you think they show them?" my brother asked. "Simply because they work" I said.

In the end, it is not the medias fault. It is ours. We get what we deserve. I don't mean to be trite. We live in a democracy, we can and should demand better. If people would turn off Fox News it would go away. If more people would think critically rather than viscerally then the politicians wouldn't pull this crap. We enable their behavior.

 

[rdtjr]

The other day I was watching TV with my extended family and lamenting the idiocy of advertising. The commercials are often very insulting I opined. "Why do you think they show them?" my brother asked. "Simply because they work" I said.

In the end, it is not the medias fault. It is ours. We get what we deserve. I don't mean to be trite. We live in a democracy, we can and should demand better. If people would turn off Fox News it would go away. If more people would think critically rather than viscerally then the politicians wouldn't pull this crap. We enable their behavior.

As the rest of my post points out, I agree we all are just as much at fault as the media. That said, the media has a responsibility to dig for and report the truth regardless of whether it is popular or "sells". They have completely abandoned this responsibility.

 

[Jorghnassen]

PS. The Slate quiz is highly US-centric. So what happens if you just guess the answers?

You will likely end up in the middle. At least that's what happened to me. Somehow, knowing who Jon Stewart is gives you blue points, while knowledge of the Bible gives you red points... Go figure.

 

[Jas]

I know how RoadToad feels...I remember the day someone told me I was conservative (this actually happened backstage at a fetish show, so was pretty memorable).

I think I fall somewhere in between. I'm believe I'm socially liberal/progressive..I'm pro-choice, support the right of gays to marry...but I'm also against (most) gun-control, and support the death penalty (properly applied).

I'm also fiscally conservative..I don't agree with a welfare state, believe in user fees...etc.

I think I'm a "accountability-ist". I think you should be held accountable for your actions, and no one elses, be they good or bad.