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Illegal observation in the Netherlands

And unintended consequences:
More importantly, Mr. Wilders's prosecution may in the end inadvertently create a crisis between the Netherlands and the Islamic world. On trial is not so much Geert Wilders, but the Holy Book of Islam.

...
The prosecution did not object to calling the witnesses for the purpose of shedding light on the Quran and "Mein Kampf" and only objected to the high number of witnesses named (17). The court will thus most likely allow most witnesses on the list to testify. Without doubt, there are many anti-Jewish remarks in the Quran. According to some researchers, there may be more of these in the Quran than in "Mein Kampf." So it is quite conceivable that the court will judge that Geert Wilders was within his right to compare the Quran to "Mein Kampf." Anything is possible in this absurd trial.

The three judges hearing the case—no doubt decent, modest, postmodern Dutchmen with a minimum knowledge of Islam and its culture and traditions—will now be forced to debate the nature of a religious text, something that should have never been heard in the court of an enlightened society. In front of the judges and television cameras, the ancient founding text of an entire civilization will be criticized and weighed against one of the most inhumane texts written in the 20th century—without any doubt a deep insult to Muslims, radical or not.
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http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703906204575026532718536518.html
 
As noted, Mein Kampf is legal in the USA.

Yes I have read it, in an annotated edition from a reputable publisher. It was assigned reading in a college course about the Holocaust.

Why can't a German or Netherlander do that?

Especially a Netherlander. Weren't they victims of the Nazis?

I have also read the Koran. Not as much rough stuff as the Bible.
 
MaGZ said:
I'm sure Wilders is getting all sorts of fringe benefits from the Israelis like the Christian Zionists in America.
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Absolutely! Each Zionist gets 100 sheckels a month and a dozen bagels. This is bad, somehow?

:rolleyes:
 
Abdul Alhazred said:
As noted, Mein Kampf is legal in the USA.
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"Mein Kampf" is as legal in the US as it is in the Netherlands or in Germany.

Abdul Alhazred said:
Yes I have read it, in an annotated edition from a reputable publisher. It was assigned reading in a college course about the Holocaust.
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Somehow, I doubt that. Did you read it in German or did you read an English translation? And which translation, and when was it made?

Abdul Alhazred said:
Why can't a German or Netherlander do that?
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The correct word is Dutchman.
And Germans and Dutchmen are allowed to possess and read the book. Many libraries have a copy and you can lend them. Trading existing copies is allowed. A German college professor who'd sell them to his students for a college course would not run afoul of the law.

Publishing, printing and selling is forbidden. The copyright on the original text is held by the state of Bavaria. The copyright of the 1939 Dutch translation is held by the Dutch state. The copyright expires in 2015: death of author + 70 years. You may thank Disney for that.

A vote in Dutch parliament in 2007 to allow publishing was defeated by 83 of 150 votes. Personally, I don't see a problem with releasing it; I don't see how it would attract more people to (neo)-Nazi ideology than there are; and from what I've read, the Dutch translation is stilted even when you update the spelling.

Anyway, the whole point of availability is moot in a few years, unless Mickey Mouse rears his ugly head again before that. :p

Abdul Alhazred said:
Especially a Netherlander. Weren't they victims of the Nazis?
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So what? There are better organized sources on Νazism than Mein Kampf. Is it really that interesting to read Hitler's racial ideology interspersed with his life story?
 
WildCat said:
And unintended consequences:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703906204575026532718536518.html
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I doubt the analysis of Leon de Winter will come true. I think the court is wiser than that. Note that the issue is not with calling the Quran a nasty piece of work; the only exception there is indeed comparing it to Mein Kampf, for historical sensibilities. Most of the complaint is about his generalizing ideas to all Muslims. I don't think the court will allow Wilders to turn this case into a platform for his ideas. The judges are primarily the ones who will interrogate experts and witnesses. Of course parties may also interrogate them, but the judges have the power to curtail them if they don't think the questions relevant to the matter.

I agree with you that it does give Wilders an opportunity to again spread his vile message; and that in that aspect, this court case is deplorable. If it weren't for the case, we'd be hearing a lot less from him these days.

I note that the case, and the "islam discussion" in general, makes for strange bedfellows. Leon de Winter, the author of the WSJ op-ed, was embroiled in a bitter feud with Theo van Gogh in the begin 1990s over antisemitic remarks from Van Gogh. Later, they found each others as Islam critics.

Bram Moszkowicz, Wilders' lawyer, has several times registered complaints with the police for antisemitic remarks.
 
WildCat said:
Didn't you claim in another thread that Scotland was a heartbeat away from becoming a fascist racist state and the fascism is only kept at bay by your laws against free speech?
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No he didn't - that was your strawman you are repeating.
 
Publishing, printing and selling is forbidden. The copyright on the original text is held by the state of Bavaria.
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Suppressing historical documents? Not in a free country.

Mein Kampf in the original German.

http://www.amazon.com/Mein-Kampf-German-Language/dp/0984158456

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Publishing, printing and selling is forbidden.
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Is this bit true or not?

And if an American company bought the American rights (to publish in German) before WWII?

If it weren't for the dispute with Disney ...

The copyright on the original text is held by the state of Bavaria.
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... would Bavaria try to prohibit it forever? Otherwise what exactly is the point? Am I wrong to think that ddt didn't just make stuff up?
 
Abdul Alhazred said:
Is this bit true or not?

And if an American company bought the American rights (to publish in German) before WWII?

If it weren't for the dispute with Disney ...
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Which dispute with Disney?

Abdul Alhazred said:
... would Bavaria try to prohibit it forever? Otherwise what exactly is the point? Am I wrong to think that ddt didn't just make stuff up?
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No idea what you are asking me - an english version of Mein Kampf (I believe it is the original Nazi translation but I may be wrong) is a copyrighted work, so it is up to the copyright holder what they do with it.
 
I recall reading that someone from tried to get someone who had spread anti immigration propaganda to be tried for 'incitement of hatred',
even though they knew there was no 'incitement of hatred' in the pamphlet.

It was all about 'sending signals' on what's acceptable.

So much for free speech.
 
Darat said:
Which dispute with Disney?



No idea what you are asking me - an english version of Mein Kampf (I believe it is the original Nazi translation but I may be wrong) is a copyrighted work, so it is up to the copyright holder what they do with it.
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I was wrong it is the original version, see: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/35261148/ns/world_news-europe/ for an article that has a lot of background such as the Allies handed the rights to the Germans and so on.

ETA: Interesting snippet from that article:

...snip...

Raim and Kramer were both skeptical that a court would forbid the book's publication after 2015, as that might constitute a breach of freedom of expression.

A similar case involving the reprint of some Nazi-era newspapers in Germany by London-based publisher Albertas Limited went through several layers of jurisdiction before a court last year essentially ruled against efforts by the Finance Ministry — which held the rights to these documents as well — to keep the infamous documents off the shelves.

Historian Raim also points out that diaries by prominent Nazis like Joseph Goebbels and Heinrich Himmler are already available in Germany.

...snip...
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And the reason it is available in the UK and the USA has nothing to do with "freedom of speech" but commercial reasons:

.... In other countries, however, the Finance Ministry couldn't hinder the book's publication due to different copyright legislation. A special case involves the U.S. and Britain, where the copyright had already been sold during Hitler's lifetime....​
 
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