I'll throw a coal into this fire

[Winny]

Well, yeah...if you nit pick the old testament you can find virtually anything you want ascribed into one passage.

I'm genuinely curious. How do you decide which parts of the bible to disregard and which parts to accept? Do you just accept that the New Testament is the real deal and the Old Testament is straight out of woo-woo land or is it more complicated than that?

Assuming that it is more complicated than that, could you let me know what rule I should apply in deciding which passages of the bible I can safely ignore and which parts are truly the word of God and literally true?

 

[El_Spectre]

He's 16, raised religious and presumably american

I'd wager MP is as widely known in the US as the UK at this point... at least the popular sketches. Perhaps not to a 16 year old. however.

you gibbering twit!
(oh, I'm sorry... this isn't Abuse?)

 

[El_Spectre]

How do you decide which parts of the bible to disregard and which parts to accept?

Well DUH... the parts that fortell JC are true, the rest are silly

I've had this argument with a friend a number of times... it's amazing how freely people interpret that book.

 

[gecko]

twisting my words again...

the thing I said was to look at the book as a whole, not nit pick little passages to make a claim one way or another.

Why? Because, the Bible leaves room for mounds of interpretation. Much of the book is parabolic in nature. I've heard druggies use quotes about "enjoying the herbs and natures of the world" or something to justify smoking pot...heck I've heard people use the Bible to justify just about anything. And as far as I'm concerned, claiming that God thinks women inferior is just about as much BS as the whole druggie thing.

Love your neighbor...love your enemies, treat everyone with compassion, yadda yadda all this stuff...the only reason anyone would think it is against women is from a few isolated texts, many of which are easily justifiable.

Ok that's my two cents...and yeah monty python is really popular here, I've told people its not my fav and they kind of look at me like an idiot... *shrugs*

 

[DangerousBeliefs]

the thing I said was to look at the book as a whole, not nit pick little passages to make a claim one way or another.

Why? Because, the Bible leaves room for mounds of interpretation. Much of the book is parabolic in nature. I've heard druggies use quotes about "enjoying the herbs and natures of the world" or something to justify smoking pot...heck I've heard people use the Bible to justify just about anything. And as far as I'm concerned, claiming that God thinks women inferior is just about as much BS as the whole druggie thing.

Love your neighbor...love your enemies, treat everyone with compassion, yadda yadda all this stuff...the only reason anyone would think it is against women is from a few isolated texts, many of which are easily justifiable.

Ok that's my two cents...and yeah monty python is really popular here, I've told people its not my fav and they kind of look at me like an idiot... *shrugs*

You do realize that you're basically saying the Bible has no meaning whatsoever - that anyone can use it to interrupt anything in any way?

Of course, history shows this view to be quite accurate.

(Oh, and all that love your neighbor/compassion "stuff" is all JC and the Sunshine Band. Most everybody else are about stoning people to death. )

 

[Winny]

twisting my words again...

the thing I said was to look at the book as a whole, not nit pick little passages to make a claim one way or another.

Why? Because, the Bible leaves room for mounds of interpretation. Much of the book is parabolic in nature. I've heard druggies use quotes about "enjoying the herbs and natures of the world" or something to justify smoking pot...heck I've heard people use the Bible to justify just about anything. And as far as I'm concerned, claiming that God thinks women inferior is just about as much BS as the whole druggie thing.

First of all, I'm new around here and I apologise if I'm continuing this conversation on the wrong part of the boards. I'm not especially fond of the various smiley faces, so just imagine vividly that I've got the appropriate one right about here.

Gecko - I apologise if I've twisted your words. I didn't think I had, but perhaps you are in a better position than me to decide that.

I *am* genuinely curious though. You have hinted at a belief in the literal truth of at least one of the creation stories in the bible. I would guess that there are other parts of the bible that you believe to be literally true?

At the same time, it would seem that you word prefer not to believe that God's exhortations to rape, murder, torture and enslave various peoples are true.

How do you decide what is true and what is untrue in the bible? You obviously don't discount the OT entirely, so there are parts of it that you believe and parts that you ignore. How do you decide on that?

You've spoken of taking "the book as a whole". Have you read the entire book? Did you think God was correct to forbid men with crushed testicles from going to church? Do you think it's reasonable that a victim of rape should be forced to marry the rapist? Do you think it was a worthy endeavour to collect the foreskins of your enemy? Do you think that God was right to threaten to smear faeces on the faces of his enemies? Do you think it was acceptable for God to kill 42 young children for making fun of His prophet?

When you take the book as a whole, God seems a fairly cranky, irrational and unpredictable kind of chappy to be honest.

 

[gecko]

umm...no I haven't read the entire Bible...only most of the new testament.

Ok, I can't really address all the things you mentioned, since I'm not really familiar with all these passages you are apparently referring to. However, yes, the Old Testament is very brutal, and God is not a peace-loving hippy God in it. But I wasn't trying to imply that he is.

God does punish sinners. The existence of hell makes this quite prevalent. He says he is a jealous God time and time again. However, this does not mean that he is also forgiving....

God is Jesus. That is a fact. Therefore, to look at who God is, look at who Jesus is. I don't know anything about Jesus forcing rape victims to marry their rapist, or anything like that. Sure, punishing sinners is a reality, but that whole rape line freaked me out a bit and that seemed really out of the blue.

In conclusion, I don't know. I'm sorry. I don't know how to interpret the Bible exactly. I'm kind of winging it. I accept that a lot of my beliefs are probably a little off. But I don't know if all those little things really matter. I think I get the big picture, and I'm glad that I do. I hope this helps, though I'm not sure it does, and I'll try to help in any way I can. Thanks for your replies.

Brian

 

[gecko]

You do realize that you're basically saying the Bible has no meaning whatsoever - that anyone can use it to interrupt anything in any way?

Of course, history shows this view to be quite accurate.

(Oh, and all that love your neighbor/compassion "stuff" is all JC and the Sunshine Band. Most everybody else are about stoning people to death. )

Indeed, anyone can interpret it in any way. But that hardly means that there isn't a true intrepitation, and it doesn't mean it doesn't have any meaning.

 

[turtle]

Yeah...seen a little monty python...I'll have to be brutally honest in saying it didn't really appeal to me.

Gasp! "Didn't appeal to you...???" ah well, woo, or skeptic, no matter, if that's the case, there's no hope! NONE!

 

[turtle]

umm...no I haven't read the entire Bible...only most of the new testament.


God is Jesus. That is a fact.

Brian

It is most assuredly not "a fact." At all.

It is your opinion. Your belief. Your faith. Your religion. Well and fine. But it is not a "fact."

 

[Palimpsest]

Yeah...seen a little monty python...I'll have to be brutally honest in saying it didn't really appeal to me. Same with Will Ferrel movies.

Hissssssss.... Mentioning Monty Python and Will Ferrell in the same breath?

 

[turtle]

Indeed, anyone can interpret it in any way. But that hardly means that there isn't a true intrepitation, and it doesn't mean it doesn't have any meaning.

How can an "interpretation" be "true?" Who decides that?

It may have meaning; obvioulsy it does, for millions of people. I'm not about to argue (much) with that. Believe what you will, and who really truly deeply knows, for a fact? No one. I don't care if people believe in baby jesus or what have you, just leave me alone about it.

That aside, just who is doing the "true" interpretating?

What if you come along and say yours is the one, true, interpretation, but others come along and say oh no, brother, it's us that has the one and true interpretation? See what a mess we have? Oh, wait, we've seen that before. As in, throughout history. Including up til now. Silly me.

 

[gecko]

How can an "interpretation" be "true?" Who decides that?

It may have meaning; obvioulsy it does, for millions of people. I'm not about to argue (much) with that. Believe what you will, and who really truly deeply knows, for a fact? No one. I don't care if people believe in baby jesus or what have you, just leave me alone about it.

That aside, just who is doing the "true" interpretating?

What if you come along and say yours is the one, true, interpretation, but others come along and say oh no, brother, it's us that has the one and true interpretation? See what a mess we have? Oh, wait, we've seen that before. As in, throughout history. Including up til now. Silly me.

Umm...who decides which is true? God obviously.

I'm not saying my interpretation is true. I'm not saying christians intrepret it all just right. That wasn't what I'm saying at all.

What I was saying is just because there are many intrepretations of something doesn't mean there is a right one. That should be pretty obvious though. If somebody says 2+2=3, someone else says its 4, and someone says its 5, then the second is right right? So varying opinions can exist with only one being right.

 

[arthwollipot]

Umm...who decides which is true? God obviously.

How do you know what is true and what is not? God obviously knows, but how do you know?

I suggest that there is only one way to decide whether a thing is true or not, and that is to examine the evidence.

 

[SezMe]

God is Jesus. That is a fact. Therefore, to look at who God is, look at who Jesus is.

OK, gecko, let's do that very thing. Jesus went around gathering his disciples and told them to leave their families right now and go with him. You want to comment on those family values?

You want another example? OK, Jesus rejected his own mother and wanted to have nothing to do with her. You want to comment on that family value?

The problem, gecko, is that there is no support for your religious beliefs,
even in that very religion's bible.

Can you, then, give us some evidence that you are not making all this nonsense up as you go along?

 

[turtle]

Umm...who decides which is true? God obviously.

Ah.

That's assuming that G-d exists.

That's assuming that, even if G-d, God, GOD, god, Goddess, goddess, etc. does exist, that he/she/it/they will talk to you.

That's assuming that if he/she/it/they do talk to you, this "interpretation" is correct. In some sacred myths, "god" is a Trickster. A truth teller one moment, a liar the next, and many things in between other times.

Answer this question: so, God decides what is true, which interpretation is true. Okay. So how does one get this interpretation? God tells it to you, I assume?

Okay.

But what if, as I had asked earlier, you say God gave you interpretation A, and someone else comes along and says, "Nope, Gecko, you're deluded, for it is I that has the real interpretation. How do I know? God told me!"

Well, this means:

You're lying.
Or, the other guy is lying.
Or, God is lying.
Or, you're both deluded.

Can you have two truths? (I say you can, but hey, that is a wholeother argument! )

Wars have been fought, and are being fought, over this very point. Do you disagree?

I'm not saying my interpretation is true. I'm not saying christians intrepret it all just right. That wasn't what I'm saying at all.

What I was saying is just because there are many intrepretations of something doesn't mean there is a right one.

? Do you mean that there is a right interpretation? Answer please: yes or no.

If yes, then does that mean you believe, as you said at the top here, that God decides what is right? If so, we get back to what I just said: how do you respond to those points?

That should be pretty obvious though. If somebody says 2+2=3, someone else says its 4, and someone says its 5, then the second is right right? So varying opinions can exist with only one being right.

"2+2=3" is not an interpretation!, it's someone who can't count, or is lacking in cognitive abilities. 2+2=4 is a FACT, and there is not "interpretating" about it.

You cannot use a mathematical example to illustrate a point of religion.

 

[Winny]

umm...no I haven't read the entire Bible...only most of the new testament.

I think you probably should read a bit more of the OT. Especially if you are going to believe what's written there!

Look, there are plenty of other people here that will be banging this gong pretty furiously, so I'll try not to make this too windy.

The trouble is that you're relying on the bible as fact in some circumstances - for example as a history of creation - and much of the bible just doesn't make sense. Read just the first two chapters of the first book. There are two different creation stories!

It's one thing to hold a set of values and beliefs and call them Christian, it's another thing altogether to claim that the bible is a reliable document in deciding how to live your life. Your earlier comments on creationism seemed to lean toward biblical inerrancy.

The bible has almost nothing useful to say as a scientific document. It has a few messages on ethics and morals, but they're pretty confused to be honest. It is an interesting historical document, telling some stories of an ancient, nomadic tribe and the gradual ascent of their war-god to the point where they considered him the only God.

Your natural curiosity should at least be a little aroused by some of the questions that have been put to you in this forum. I hope you decide to look in to it further.

 

[rppa]

I think you probably should read a bit more of the OT. Especially if you are going to believe what's written there!

There are some pretty explicit contradictions.

Example: OT says the law says "An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth".

Jesus says "You know that eye for an eye law? Don't do that anymore."

 

[gecko]

well...let's see.

First of all, no I don't know "the truth" as you put it! God didn't come down and say "Hey Brian, here's the true interpretation of the Bible". My entire point was that it can be intrepreted in many different ways, and we have no way(while on this earth) to know which is true. We have to take what personal knowledge we have of God, read the Bible critically, yadda yadda and try to get as close as we can.

Your quotes about Jesus were skewed. Leaving your family if you have a greater calling isn't necessarily a bad thing. Are you going to say there should be no soldiers? Those people have to leave their families to go to war. Second, leaving someone's parents to pursue their real lives is perfectly natural too. Grow up with your parents, leave them to be with your spouse...that's a widely held belief not only by people but also in the Bible.

Yes, I am currently reading the Bible through, and I intend to finish the whole thing. I don't know why you think it is so imperitent that I have read it all before I try to post about this though...

My mathematical example is still sound as far as I can see. If you assume that God exists...which we were doing. Our issue wasn't with his existence at this time but the interpretation thing. So we are assuming he exists. Therefore, there has to be some truth about him, in other words, some correct intrepretation about him, or some fact of sorts. That's the same as 2+2=4, its a sound fact. However, there are many intrepretations, and I don't know which is right, if any, only that there is a truth worth searching for. And I don't think your type of searching is the way to find it.

arthwollipot, I dont' know what is true. I think I touched on this above though...I'm not trying to profess that I know everything...hardly.

The OT and the NT do have a lot of contradictions with the changes of the times. The OT is a world where God operates and runs freely, influencing people and regulating the sins of humankind. However, in this day and age, he has given us the free will to make of our lives what we will. Our judgment awaits, though just at a different time.

 

[turtle]

There are some pretty explicit contradictions.

Example: OT says the law says "An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth".

Jesus says "You know that eye for an eye law? Don't do that anymore."

No one disputes there are "some pretty explicit contradictions" in the Bible. But the Bible, the Christian Bible that is, includes both the OT and the NT. You can't reject the OT because it's bothersome. If you say you're a Chrisitan, then you have to grapple with both the OT, and NT.

Edited to say: Oops, sorry, got posters mixed up, thought you were Gecko.

But, my point about the OT and NT -- Gecko, it's a valid point.