IG Horowitz report thread.

[Skeptic Ginger]

The IG report makes it clear that it was relied upon to issue warrants.

The GOP talking points claim that. It's a false claim.

 

[Ziggurat]

The GOP talking points claim that. It's a false claim.

You have that exactly backwards. It's a Democrat talking point that the dossier wasn't relied upon. But as you've already demonstrated, you don't have a clue about what the IG report contains.

From the executive summary, page vii:

In support of the fourth element in the FISA application-Carter Page's alleged coordination with the Russian government on 2016 U.S. presidential election activities - the application relied entirely on the following information from Steele Reports​

page viii:

We found that the FBI d id not have information corroborating the specific allegations against Carter Page in Steele's reporting when it relied upon his reports in the first FISA application or subsequent renewal applications.​

page 359:

We concluded that the Crossfire Hurricane team's receipt of Steele's election reporting on September 19, 2016, played a central and essential role in the decision by FBI OGC to support the request for FISA surveillance targeting Carter Page, as well as the Department's ultimate decision to seek the FISA order.​

page 360:

FBI leadership supported relying on Steele's reporting to seek a FISA order authorizing surveillance targeting Page after being advised of, and giving consideration to, the concerns expressed by Evans that Steele may have been hired by someone associated with presidential candidate Clinton or the DNC, and that the foreign intelligence to be collected through the FISA order would probably not be worth the "risk" of being criticized later for collecting communications of someone (Carter Page) who was "politically sensitive."​

page 363:

In all four [FISA] applications, the factual basis supporting probable cause relied upon Page's historical (pre-2016) contacts with known Russian intelligence officers, as well as information from four Steele reports (Reports 80, 94, 95, and 102).​

Let's see if you can admit your error.

 

[ChristianProgressive]

The IG report makes it clear that it was relied upon to issue warrants.

It wasn't a fabrication.

 

[Ziggurat]

It wasn't a fabrication.

The IG report also makes clear that Steele's reporting was largely unsubstantiated, uncertainties about its reliability were not accurately conveyed to the FISA court, and false claims in support of Steele's reliability were submitted to the court.

But keep on pretending that there were no problems, if that makes you feel better.

 

[ChristianProgressive]

The IG report also makes clear that Steele's reporting was largely unsubstantiated, uncertainties about its reliability were not accurately conveyed to the FISA court, and false claims in support of Steele's reliability were submitted to the court.

But keep on pretending that there were no problems, if that makes you feel better.

"Unsubstantiated" =/= fabrication.

And much of it HAS been substantiated.

 

[The Great Zaganza]

The IG didn't have access to Steele's sources - but even Durham found him credible.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

https://www.justice.gov/storage/120919-examination.pdf

From page 159-160

As described later in Chapters Seven and Eight, none of the three renewal applications described Page's prior historical contacts and relationship with the other U.S. government agency, even after the FBI received additional information from the other agency in June 2017. In April and May 2017, following news reports that the FBI had obtained a FISA targeting Carter Page, Page gave interviews to news outlets denying that he had collected intelligence for the Russian government and asserting instead that he had previously shared information that he had learned with the U.S. intelligence community. In mid-June 2017, in response to concerns expressed by members of the Crossfire Hurricane team, the OGC Attorney contacted the other U.S. government agency by email to seek clarification about Page's past status with that agency. The other U.S. government agency responded by email to the FBI OGC attorney by directing the attorney to memoranda previously sent to the FBI by the other U.S. government agency that informed the FBI that Page did previously have a relationship with that other agency and that the last contact occurred in July 2011. The email also stated, using the other agency's terminology, that Page had a relationship with that other agency. However, when asked about Page's prior status with that other agency by a Crossfire Hurricane supervisor, SSA 2, who was going to be the affiant on the final FISA renewal application, the OGC Attorney told SSA 2 that Page had never had a relationship with the other U.S. government agency. In addition, the OGC Attorney altered the email that the other U.S. government agency had sent to the OGC Attorney so that the email stated that Page had not been a source for the other agency; the OGC Attorney then forwarded the altered email to SSA 2, who told us he relied on the email. Shortly thereafter, SSA 2 served as the affiant on the final renewal application, which was again silent on Page's prior relationship with the other U.S. government agency.​

So the OGC Attorney fabricated evidence to claim Page was not a government source, when the FBI had an obligation to tell the court that he was.

Also, its the Inspector General (IG) report, not the AG report.

Care to highlight where it says the FISA warrant relied on false information.

 

[plague311]

How do you substantiate something if you don't investigate it?

 

[Ziggurat]

"Unsubstantiated" =/= fabrication.

I didn't say it was fabricated. But that doesn't suffice.

And much of it HAS been substantiated.

That's really not true. Page 196:

Despite the FBI's efforts to corroborate and evaluate the Steele election reporting, we were told by the Supervisory Intel Analyst that, as of September 2017, the FBI had corroborated limited information in the Steele election reporting, and much of that information was publicly available. 352 Most relevant to the Carter Page FISA applications, the specific substantive allegations contained in Reports 80, 94, 95, and 102, which were relied upon in all four FISA applications, remained uncorroborated and, in several instances, were inconsistent with information gathered by the Crossfire Hurricane team.​

 

[Ziggurat]

The IG didn't have access to Steele's sources - but even Durham found him credible.

Not directly, but the FBI did, and the IG details what the FBI found from Steele's source, which conflicted with what Steele claimed the source told him.

ETA: and we don't know yet what Durham's judgment is going to be.

 

[ahhell]

I may look at the rest of that later but this needs addressing.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carter_Page
The idea this was some innocent citizen targeted by the FBI because he joined the Trump campaign is typical Trumper talking point BS,

Who gives a ****, he was still an US citizen spied on by the FBI who obtained and maintained a secret warrant by repeatedly lying to the court.

I'd be relieved if they found evidence of wide spread bias, instead they just found that the FBI is willing to fabricate evidence to spy on Americans for.....lulz....because they had it comming......hey if you don't have anything to hide why would you worry about being spied on?

 

[plague311]

Am I understanding this right in that the last time Page worked with the CIA, or had contact, was in 2011?

...that Page did previously have a relationship with that other agency and that the last contact occurred in July 2011

Are you still determined to be a CIA contact if you haven't had any contact with them in 5 years? Legit question, I don't know how being a CIA contact works.

 

[Minoosh]

As far as I can tell the implication is that the OLC falsified an email to make it look like Page did not have a previous relationship with another government agency, because the OLC thought that would help with the warrant renewal.

But really, if I had contact with foreign governments and had furnished U.S. agencies with intel from those contacts I would kind of *expect* the government to eavesdrop. If I were a judge, knowing someone was a previous CIA informant would make me MORE likely to authorize a tap, not less.

My scandal threshold is pretty high, though. And there's no guarantee I'm interpreting that verbiage correctly, either.

 

[Ziggurat]

Am I understanding this right in that the last time Page worked with the CIA, or had contact, was in 2011?



Are you still determined to be a CIA contact if you haven't had any contact with them in 5 years? Legit question, I don't know how being a CIA contact works.

Page 247-248:

As noted in Chapter Five, on or about August 17, 2016, while early FISA discussions were ongoing, the Crossfire Hurricane team received a memorandum (August 17 Memorandum) from another U.S. government agency relating to Page's prior relationship with that agency, including that Page had been approved for operational contact from 2008 to 2013. The information also described Page's prior interactions with Russian intelligence officers about which the agency was aware, including contacts Page had with a Russian intelligence officer (Intelligence Officer 1), which were among the historical connections to Russian intelligence officers that the FBI later relied upon in the first FISA application (and subsequent renewal applications) to help support probable cause. We found that, although this information was highly relevant to the FISA application, the Crossfire Hurricane team did not engage with the other agency regarding this information. In addition, in response to a question from the QI Attorney in September 2016 as to whether Carter Page had a current or prior relationship with the other agency, Case Agent 1 provided the OI Attorney with inaccurate information that failed to disclose the extent and nature of Page's relationship with that agency. As a result, the first FISA application, and FISA Renewal Application Nos. 1 and 2, contained no information regarding Page's relationship with the other U.S. government agency, and did not reveal that his relationship with the other agency overlapped in part with facts asserted in the application regarding Page's ties to particular Russian intelligence officers.​

In other words, the FBI used past interactions between Page and Russian intelligence as justification for its FISA application, contacts from the time period in which he was an approved contact and was briefing the other agency about his dealings with the Russians. But the FBI failed to tell the court that Page was an intelligence contact for another agency and that this other agency was already aware of this contact, and in fact one FBI employee forged evidence to conceal this. And note again the importance of this: the warrant was based on the assertion that these contacts showed Page might be working for the Russians. But in truth he was working for the Americans, and the knowledge that page was an approved contact would have informed the court of this possibility.

 

[a_unique_person]

How do you substantiate something if you don't investigate it?

They keep conflating an investigation with a trial. You investigate because you don't have the answers.

 

[plague311]

In other words, the FBI used past interactions between Page and Russian intelligence as justification for its FISA application, contacts from the time period in which he was an approved contact and was briefing the other agency about his dealings with the Russians. But the FBI failed to tell the court that Page was an intelligence contact for another agency and that this other agency was already aware of this contact, and in fact one FBI employee forged evidence to conceal this. And note again the importance of this: the warrant was based on the assertion that these contacts showed Page might be working for the Russians. But in truth he was working for the Americans, and the knowledge that page was an approved contact would have informed the court of this possibility.

If he's working as a contact for the government, no matter the agency, why can't they get his phone details? I won't deny this wasn't the way to go about it but government agencies having dick waving fights isn't something new. This whole thing confuses me which is why I've stayed out of this particular topic for the most part. If he was working for the CIA why didn't the CIA turn over all available information to the FBI?

 

[Ziggurat]

If he's working as a contact for the government, no matter the agency, why can't they get his phone details? I won't deny this wasn't the way to go about it but government agencies having dick waving fights isn't something new. This whole thing confuses me which is why I've stayed out of this particular topic for the most part. If he was working for the CIA why didn't the CIA turn over all available information to the FBI?

The FBI didn't ask for it. The simplest explanation is that their interest in him was always pretextual, and what they really wanted was an excuse to go after the Trump campaign.

OK, that's probably the second simplest explanation, the simplest being the FBI is staffed by complete ******* morons. But despite the advantage of simplicity, I find that explanation less likely.

 

[plague311]

The FBI didn't ask for it. The simplest explanation is that their interest in him was always pretextual, and what they really wanted was an excuse to go after the Trump campaign.

OK, that's probably the second simplest explanation, the simplest being the FBI is staffed by complete ******* morons. But despite the advantage of simplicity, I find that explanation less likely.

Occam's razor leads me to believe this is false though. They were going after the Trump campaign but only 1 staffers phone data? They didn't announce the investigation into Trump but openly stated it about Hillary? I don't know, seems like if that were the case they did the absolute worst job of it ever.

Oh well, I'll fade back into the shadows on this topic. To be honest, it's not even in the top few reasons why I want Trump impeached. Punish the people that ****** up in the FBI, but unless they somehow obtained information they wouldn't have otherwise gotten, this doesn't really interest me. I'm not forgiving it, just doesn't mean much to me in the grand scheme of things.

 

[ChristianProgressive]

Who gives a ****, he was still an US citizen spied on by the FBI who obtained and maintained a secret warrant by repeatedly lying to the court.

I'd be relieved if they found evidence of wide spread bias, instead they just found that the FBI is willing to fabricate evidence to spy on Americans for.....lulz....because they had it comming......hey if you don't have anything to hide why would you worry about being spied on?

Nothing was fabricated. The IG said the investigation was both free of bias and warranted.

 

[ChristianProgressive]

what they really wanted was an excuse to go after the Trump campaign.
.

I WANT the FBI to go after the treasonous pigs of the Trump campaign. Catching traitors is part of their job.