If You Really Care About Mercenaries

Mr Manifesto

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Apr 28, 2003
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...you still wouldn't want them in Iraq.

The last message Mike Bloss sent from Iraq was earnest but optimistic. The ex-paratrooper and the electrical engineers he was guarding were surrounded by gunmen. Escape seemed improbable. And yet the Welsh security guard sounded confident that he could shoot a way out.
"We are expecting to be overrun tonight," he emailed friends in Colorado. "We may have to fight our way to a safe haven. Unfortunately all the safe havens are already under attack ... We'll probably be OK! I'll email when I'm safe."

Mr Bloss didn't send another email. He managed to keep the assailants at bay long enough to enable the contractors he was protecting to escape. But he was killed in a gun battle - and with him a little more of what optimism is left in Iraq.

In the bloody turmoil of Iraq, it is private security guards like Mr Bloss who are most exposed. Mostly ex-soldiers hired at formidable costs of up to £1,000 a day to make Iraq safe for investment, they have no tanks or armoured helicopters to rescue them when things turn ugly.

Let's face it, when you're in a war-zone, only soldiers backed up with the sort of resources an army can provide will do.
 
Jeezus! The guy was a bodyguard for some workers... he wasn't hired to undertake military operations, he was meant to scare off kidnappers and such. His death is unfortunate, and I would hope that any other bodyguards in the areas under insurrection would have long since whisked away their clients.
It is sad, unquestionably.
 
Mr Manifesto said:
Let's face it, when you're in a war-zone, only soldiers backed up with the sort of resources an army can provide will do.

Mercenaries are soldiers in a (hired) army.

Which proves that the folks you are talking about aren't really "mercenaries".

But I can't really call you a Commie yet, because their line is that the US military, not being draftees, are mercenaries. Being proletarians they couldn't possibly have any national loyalty to the USA. :p
 
Re: Re: If You Really Care About Mercenaries

Abdul Alhazred said:


Mercenaries are soldiers in a (hired) army.

Which proves that the folks you are talking about aren't really "mercenaries".

But I can't really call you a Commie yet, because their line is that the US military, not being draftees, are mercenaries. Being proletarians they couldn't possibly have any national loyalty to the USA. :p

A very interesting point. Many of the members of the US military are there not because they wanted to join, but because they wanted a job, or an education. The US is currently very worried that these people will bail out the first chance they get.
 
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a_unique_person said:


Many of the members of the US military are there not because they wanted to join, but because they wanted a job, or an education. The US is currently very worried that these people will bail out the first chance they get.

You are creating a phony mutually exclusive distinction here.

I joined the military because I wanted an education. It was just one of the reasons I wanted to join. If one wishes to get an education in the US, there are many options. Show me one person who could not get an education without joining the military. Just one.

In 8 years of military service, I don’t recall any one person that joined for a single reason. They all had more than one or two.

And even if those are the only reasons people did join, they still wanted to join. Nobody forced them.
 
Re: Re: If You Really Care About Mercenaries

Abdul Alhazred said:

Which proves that the folks you are talking about aren't really "mercenaries".

But I can't really call you a Commie yet, because their line is that the US military, not being draftees, are mercenaries. Being proletarians they couldn't possibly have any national loyalty to the USA. :p

It does not prove they are not mercenaries. It does prove that some mercenaries have ethics.

The negative connotations associated with mercenaries do not provide a definition for who is and is not a mercenary. If you were to subscribe to that kind of a definition, then a Catholic priest who does not molest children is not really a priest.

This man died protecting a group of people in his charge. They were his responsibility and he did not abandon them. That is a good example of someone that kept his word and paid a high price for it. That is all that you can ask of a human.

Try talking to some veterans some time. In the end, they don’t fight for money or patriotism. They only reason people do not run away from a battle is that they do not wish to betray those they have bonded with. I suspect that this dead mercenary got to know the people he was protecting. Or at the very least, he was friends with his fellow mercenaries.
 
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Doubt said:


You are creating a phony mutually exclusive distinction here.

I joined the military because I wanted an education. It was just one of the reasons I wanted to join. If one wishes to get an education in the US, there are many options. Show me one person who could not get an education without joining the military. Just one.

In 8 years of military service, I don’t recall any one person that joined for a single reason. They all had more than one or two.

And even if those are the only reasons people did join, they still wanted to join. Nobody forced them.

I think the most famous one was Jessica Lynch. She wanted to be a kindergarten teacher, but couldn't afford to do the course.
 
Re: Re: Re: If You Really Care About Mercenaries

a_unique_person said:


A very interesting point. Many of the members of the US military are there not because they wanted to join, but because they wanted a job, or an education.

Fair enough. But it hardly comes as a surprise to anyone capable of benefiting from such an education that in wartime, your "education" may be interrupted for actual duty.

If this is the best you can do to knock the all-volunteer status of the US military, then I'm afraid you'll need to do much better than "the syllabus wasn't what they were expecting."

The US is currently very worried that these people will bail out the first chance they get.

Source?
 
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a_unique_person said:


I think the most famous one was Jessica Lynch. She wanted to be a kindergarten teacher, but couldn't afford to do the course.

Got us, AUP. It's a sad fact that no one in America can make a career on their own or fund their education without the military. This is due to the absolute impossibility of working one's way through school, securing grants or special low-interest loans from the US Dept. of Education, learning a trade on the job or winning a scholarship. None of those avenues are open to us poor dumb Americans. Is it any surprise that some would take the unfairly exploitive course of the GI bill? The horror. THE HORROR!


You're right, we should just wave the magic wand and make everyone's dreams come true without any obligation or responsibility.

Are you SURE you're not a communist?



Edited to add: By the way, AUP, this poor dumb American used all the above listed means, to some degree or other, to secure a quality education and an upwardly mobile career. I think most Americans here will have a similar tale.
 
Re: Re: Re: If You Really Care About Mercenaries

a_unique_person said:


A very interesting point. Many of the members of the US military are there not because they wanted to join, but because they wanted a job, or an education. The US is currently very worried that these people will bail out the first chance they get.

Who is worried? Where did you hear it? How do you know why people are there?
 
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Jocko said:



Edited to add: By the way, AUP, this poor dumb American used all the above listed means, to some degree or other, to secure a quality education and an upwardly mobile career. I think most Americans here will have a similar tale.

And get permanently crippled for life.
 
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a_unique_person said:


And get permanently crippled for life.

You want to try making sense and contribute to a discussion or throw some bullsh!t around?
 
Mr Manifesto said:
Maybe I should have phrased it, "if you want security in a war-zone etc..."

Indeed. But that blows big holes in your original propaganda point.

To say that the USA is handling security all wrong is perhaps defensible. But talk of "mercenaries" has a different emotional charge, and you know it!
 
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Grammatron said:


Who is worried? Where did you hear it? How do you know why people are there?

One of many articles

http://www.theatlantic.com/issues/2004/03/fallows.htm

Some reservists and active-duty soldiers no doubt thrive on unexpected assignments. But for the military as a whole, the stepped-up "ops tempo," or pace of operations, is hard to sustain with a volunteer force. Since the elimination of the draft, in 1973, the military has had to compete with the rest of the U.S. economy for manpower. It has done so in material ways, by increasing pay and benefits, and with its traditional appeal to those seeking challenge, service, and personal growth. But it has also offered volunteers a certain amount of control over their destiny, because they could always resign if they chose. And although recruiters would never put it this way, the enlistees of the 1990s could reasonably assume that the greatest physical danger they would face would come during training exercises, not from roadside bombs in a place like Baghdad or Fallujah. Guard and Reserve members could, within certain limits, assume that their lives would remain normal.

Last fall, two years into the emergency, numerous indicators suggested that Americans were beginning to vote with their feet. Guard units across the country fell short of their recruiting targets, and the Army Reserves reported a shortfall in re-enlistments. An un-scientific poll of U.S. troops in Iraq conducted by the military newspaper Stars and Stripes in October found that nearly half planned not to re-enlist. "We are expending the force and doing little to ensure its viability in the years to come, years we have been assured it will take to win the war on terrorism," retired Army General Frederick Kroesen wrote in a military journal on hearing that reservists would be mobilized for a second year. "It might be prudent now to ask the managers who decreed the current second-year Reservists' extensions what they plan for the third year."

An overworked military can function very well for a while, as ours has—but not indefinitely if it relies on volunteers. "We are in serious danger of breaking the human-capital equation of the Army," Thomas White, a retired general and a former Secretary of the Army, told me last year. "Once you break it, it takes a long time to put it back together. It took us over twenty years after Vietnam."

The second problem is that America has so many troops tied down in so many places that, for all its power, it is strangely hamstrung. Despite our level of spending and our apparent status as the world's mono-power, the United States has few unused reserves of military strength. Sending troops in a hurry to the Korean DMZ—or to Iran, or the Taiwan Strait—would mean removing them in a hurry from some other place where, according to U.S. policy, they are also needed.

The military press has been abuzz with the news that four divisions, representing nearly half the Army's active-duty strength, are now officially in the two lowest readiness categories, because of their service in Iraq. These divisions—the well-known 82nd Airborne, 101st Airborne, 1st Armored, and 4th Infantry—will spend six months this year repairing machines, restocking supplies, and resting soldiers before returning to fully ready status. During the 2000 presidential campaign George W. Bush said, "The next President will inherit a military in decline"—in part because under the Clinton Administration two Army divisions were classified as unready because of their service in the Balkans. In a pinch all these units could of course fight and win. But throughout America's era as a world power, governments under both parties have wanted the country to seem overprepared—extra-formidable—so that our adversaries will know the United States has the means to do almost anything it chooses. Now America is over-extended. The limits on U.S. power are more apparent than they were before we committed troops in Iraq.
 
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Grammatron said:


You want to try making sense and contribute to a discussion or throw some bullsh!t around?

I don't get it. She wanted to be a kinder teacher, but couldn't afford to. (Not everyone wants to work double shift for their education, a night job, and study by day).

She joined the army. She is crippled for life and her best friend dead.
 
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a_unique_person said:


I think the most famous one was Jessica Lynch. She wanted to be a kindergarten teacher, but couldn't afford to do the course.

That example does not even hold up to the simplest check on google:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=jessica+lynch+kindergarten&spell=1

Here is one link from that search:

http://www.townhall.com/columnists/kathleenparker/kp20031119.shtml

As most know by now, Lynch wanted to be a kindergarten teacher. Joining the Army was simply a way to see the world and secure her college tuition.

Funny which one is second. Here is a short lesson about getting a college education in the states. Financial aid:

http://studentaid.ed.gov/PORTALSWebApp/students/english/aideligibility.jsp?tab=funding

The cold hard reality is that pretty much anyone can arrange a combination of grants and loans to go to college in the US. After my G.I. bill ran out, I finished my education using both grants and loans. There is no effective argument that a person has to join the military in order to afford college. It is just one option available.

It looks more like Ms. Lynch found an option that fit with at least one other goal in her life. I am quite sure that she met all of the initial requirements for aid:

# qualify for financial need (except for certain loans).
# have a high school diploma or a General Education Development (GED) certificate, pass a test approved by the U.S. Department of Education, meet other standards your state establishes that the Department approves, or complete a high school education in a home school setting that is treated as such under state law.
# be working toward a degree or certificate in an eligible program.
# be a U.S. citizen or eligible noncitizen.
# have a valid Social Security Number (unless you're from the Republic of the Marshall Islands, the Federated States of Micronesia, or the Republic of Palau).
# register with the Selective Service if required. You can use the paper or electronic FAFSA to register, you can register at www.sss.gov, or you can call 1-847-688-6888. (TTY users can call 1-847-688-2567.)
# maintain satisfactory academic progress once in school.
# certify that you are not in default on a federal student loan and do not owe money on a federal student grant.
# certify that you will use federal student aid only for educational purposes.
 
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a_unique_person said:

Well that's a good opinion piece, but the facts are against you.

http://home.hamptonroads.com/stories/story.cfm?story=68788&ran=164264

Despite a rising tide of combat deaths and the prospect of deployments to Iraq and Afghanistan for years to come, Americans continue to volunteer for duty and are re-enlisting at record rates.
....
The Army, Navy, Air Force, Marine Corps and Coast Guard all met or exceeded their year-end recruiting goals for fiscal year 2003, which ended Sept. 30. The figures continued to climb in the first half of fiscal year 2004, which was reached March 31.
 
Someone just had to start a second thread on mercenaries, right?

Forget trying to get an understanding, or forge a consensus.
 
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a_unique_person said:


And get permanently crippled for life.

Yes, AUP, all Americans are crippled by law in the third grade. You've found us out.

And apparently all Australian mothers are required to binge on rubbing alcohol in the third trimester, too.

Ass.
 

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