If The World Could Vote

[T.A.M.]

It sure seems the rest of world hates it when the U.S. operates outside its boarders, yet the rest of the world would appreciate it if Americans would vote for a candidate with the rest of the wold in mind. Since Obama isn't exporting freedom or a "new world order," is it OK to vote for him without thinking about the rest of the world?

1. The rest of the world dislikes it when the USG goes around acting like a cowboy in the wild west, going after which ever country suits them, on sketchy to fraudulent evidence.

2. I have no issue with the USG operating outside its borders to further peace, democracy (if done peacefully), alternative energy, etc...

3. Obama is not exporting "Forced" Freedom, democracy by "twisted arm", that is one of many things that distinguishes him positively from the rulers in washington the last 8 years.

4. It is only natural for people around the world to prefer the candidate they see as the most likely to be diplomatic, and the one most likely to try to work with countries, allies and not, alike. Ultimately, though we have only an opinion, not a vote.

TAM

 

[Lonewulf]

I don't get the whole "exporting freedom" or a "new world order" bit.

Surely Cicero doesn't think that nothing Obama stands to do will ever affect other nations?

 

[ParanoidAndroid]

I'm American too. Many of those I deal with here in Heidelberg view America in a positive light. In fact, perhaps most. None of my instructors had a problem with me being American.

I study with people all over the world; many from around Europe, but many around the Middle East, from Africa (a couple have been in my class, from the Ivory Coast), etc. I don't go around rating their opinions, but many see America in a more positive light; I know of some people that actually want to move to America.

Still, there is a general dislike of American politics, notably the past administration (Darth Rotor refers to their expressing of their dislike as "whingeing"). Personally, I tend to agree with their views myself. I haven't particularly been a fan of this administration, and furthermore I think there is a lot of corruption in American politics that needs to be cleared up.

I don't get why this is so controversial. I certainly don't feel like I shouldn't be allowed to comment on foreign politics. I actually want to learn more about foreign politics in general, although I tend to fall asleep on the iffy details. Hiding from foreign politics, and asking everyone to keep their nose out of our business and not comment at all, seems more to me to be Isolationist garbage that just plain doesn't work.

All good points…

For clarification I'll just add that, to the best of my recollection based upon years of conversations, most or all of those acquaintances I cited from other countries were glad to be in the US and had varying degrees of respect and admiration for the US. I don't think that means that we don't sometimes project as a bully in terms of international affairs; in some ways deservedly so, not so much in others. And I would certainly agree that this has been measurably worsened by our soon-to-be-outgoing administration.

 

[ZirconBlue]

I thought all Americans acted like that. Isn't "Up yours, rest of the world!" part of the national motto?

I'd say it's at least the unofficial motto of the Bush administration. You're either with us or against us, after all.

 

[Lonewulf]

I'd say it's at least the unofficial motto of the Bush administration. You're either with us or against us, after all.

Not just the Bush administration. To be fair, that mindset has been around for quite a while in a certain percentage of the population.

 

[ZirconBlue]

Not just the Bush administration. To be fair, that mindset has been around for quite a while in a certain percentage of the population.

Sure. But I don't think we've ever so blatantly presented that to the rest of the world as we have under the current administration. I'm sure there are joingoistic citizens in just about every country, and I'm sure we have more than our fair share in the US, but usually a nation's leaders try to at least pretend they care what the rest of the world thinks.

 

[ahtong]

If I could vote and based my decision on who ran the better campaign and who would probably be a more sensible President, I would choose Obama.

If I wanted to hasten the demise of the Great Satan, I would vote for McCain.

The honest opinion of 1 foreigner.

 

[Lonewulf]

Sure. But I don't think we've ever so blatantly presented that to the rest of the world as we have under the current administration. I'm sure there are joingoistic citizens in just about every country, and I'm sure we have more than our fair share in the US, but usually a nation's leaders try to at least pretend they care what the rest of the world thinks.

You have a point.

If I could vote and based my decision on who ran the better campaign and who would probably be a more sensible President, I would choose Obama.

If I wanted to hasten the demise of the Great Satan, I would vote for McCain.

The honest opinion of 1 foreigner.

Yet another reason for Darth Rotor to vote for McCain, because nothing is more American than spiting foreigner's opinions just for the sake of spiting them.

And Cicero will just bring up nazis, because there's nothing more fun than bringing up nazis when anybody dares to make an opinion on the U.S.

 

[Cicero]

You have a point.

Yet another reason for Darth Rotor to vote for McCain, because nothing is more American than spiting foreigner's opinions just for the sake of spiting them.

And Cicero will just bring up nazis, because there's nothing more fun than bringing up nazis when anybody dares to make an opinion on the U.S.

Oliver's posts show a definite benighteness regarding his own country's checkered past. You do not have to go back to WWII either for evidence of Germany's perfidy on the world stage. Chancellor Willy Brandt conspired with the Palestinians to initiate a fake airline hijacking in order to give the German government an excuse to release the surviving terrorists from the Munich Olympics.

As much as the U.S. is criticized by the rest of the world it hasn't slowed down the number of foreigners who wish to immigrate to this country.

I wonder why that is?

 

[ParanoidAndroid]

Oliver's posts show a definite benighteness regarding his own country's checkered past. You do not have to go back to WWII either for evidence of Germany's perfidy on the world stage. Chancellor Willy Brandt conspired with the Palestinians to initiate a fake airline hijacking in order to give the German government an excuse to release the surviving terrorists from the Munich Olympics.

As much as the U.S. is criticized by the rest of the world it hasn't slowed down the number of foreigners who wish to immigrate to this country.

I wonder why that is?

Partly because we (the US) are better in some respects in terms of individual citizen "rights" than many other countries...so what...

Is your point:
A) that since we (the US) are better in some respects than others that there is no room for critique or improvement for us;
B) that since citizens in other countries seem not to consider the effects of their votes (your stated perspective) and subsequent governmental actions at times we shouldn't either...in other words: 2 wrongs make a right; or
C) other?

If your answer is A or B, I see no reason to entertain you further on the topic.

...if the answer is C, by all means, please explain...go ahead...I'll wait...

 

[Cicero]

Partly because we (the US) are better in some respects in terms of individual citizen "rights" than many other countries...so what...

Is your point:
A) that since we (the US) are better in some respects than others that there is no room for critique or improvement for us;
B) that since citizens in other countries seem not to consider the effects of their votes (your stated perspective) and subsequent governmental actions at times that we shouldn't either...in other words: 2 wrongs make a right; or
C) other?

If your answer is A or B, I see no reason to entertain you further on the topic.

...if the answer is C, by all means, please explain...go ahead...I'll wait...

Were you traumatized taking an SAT? I'll leave the ABC's to the Jackson 5.

Americans and foreigners criticize the U.S. all the time. When in the 230+ years in the history of this country has this not been the case?

Is it inherently "wrong" to NOT take into account what other countries think of your country before voting? That standard doesn't even make the top ten list of pertinent info a voter should consider before casting their vote. I don't care if people in any country first consider how their vote might effect Venetians. I do object to those who make grandiloquent proclamations that Americans who forgo this particular consideration are then too nationalistic, jingoistic or nihilistic.

 

[ParanoidAndroid]

Were you traumatized taking an SAT? I'll leave the ABC's to the Jackson 5.

Americans and foreigners criticize the U.S. all the time. When in the 230+ years in the history of this country has this not been the case?

Is it inherently "wrong" to NOT take into account what other countries think of your country before voting? That standard doesn't even make the top ten list of pertinent info a voter should consider before casting their vote. I don't care if people in any country first consider how their vote might effect Venetians. I do object to those who make grandiloquent proclamations that Americans who forgo this particular consideration are then too nationalistic, jingoistic or nihilistic.

...easy as 1,2,3...

Obviously, you are entitled to your opinions and objections but I would be remiss were I not to point out that I never equated those who fail to think beyond their narrow immediate sphere of being nationalistic (or jingoistic) or even "wrong", per say...I stated, and maintain, that those who fail to think broadly and in a considerate fashion promote an inconsiderate and narrow view (sort of self evident, actually). Although, I will confess that I have quite often observed that rampant nationalism can insulate this brand of narrow mindedness, I'll not claim a clear cause and effect relationship.

As for the assertion of equating the narrow minded and inconsiderate with nihilism, I have definitely not said anything of the sort and don't recall seeing any other posters do so either. Polysyllabic words can be neat, but the meaning must still apply...sorry...FAIL.

ETA: I can't help but notice that you have still not addressed why it is that you feel it preferable to NOT consider the perspectives of citizens in other countries. Or if that is too strong to be representative of your perspective: why you are offended at the suggestion that to consider their perspectives is beneficial. Perhaps if you would do so, I could better understand.

 

[ParanoidAndroid]

...Is it inherently "wrong" to NOT take into account what other countries think of your country before voting? That standard doesn't even make the top ten list of pertinent info a voter should consider before casting their vote...

So because this consideration might not appear on a top ten list, as if made for a late night talk show, it shouldn't be considered.

I think (I know, I'm ****ing nuts) that many of the voters in this country and others can consider more than 10 criteria for casting a vote, don't you?

Answer the ETA in my last post.

 

[Cicero]

I stated, and maintain, that those who fail to think broadly and in a considerate fashion promote an inconsiderate and narrow view (sort of self evident, actually). Although, I will confess that I have quite often observed that rampant nationalism can insulate this brand of narrow mindedness, I'll not claim a clear cause and effect relationship.

As for the assertion of equating the narrow minded and inconsiderate with nihilism, I have definitely not said anything of the sort and don't recall seeing any other posters do so either. Polysyllabic words can be neat, but the meaning must still apply...FAIL.

ETA: I can't help but notice that you have still not addressed why it is that you feel it preferable to NOT consider the perspectives of citizens in other countries. Or if that is too strong to be representative of your perspective: why you are offended at the suggestion that to consider their perspectives is bad. Perhaps if you would do so, I could better understand.

Inconsiderate? I doubt even Emily Post covered voting etiquette.

It has nothing to do with preference, but rather indifference. A voter can consider whatever they beleive to be relevant before casting their vote. If you want to get to know the perspective of citizens of other countries, the time to do that is when you travel abroad. The fact that so many citizens from other countries have made America their new home and have naturalized, the perspective from their former countries is already being projected automatically when they vote. Isn't that good enough for you?

 

[ParanoidAndroid]

Inconsiderate? I doubt even Emily Post covered voting etiquette...

OK. I've never used her as a guide to what I deem important, necessarily; but OK.

...and I meant considerate, as in "to consider", as in "to consider the perspectives of other countries"...only in the negative...eh, what's the use...

...It has nothing to do with preference, but rather indifference. A voter can consider whatever they beleive to be relevant before casting their vote...

If you were really indifferent, you wouldn't have pursued the issue this far, but OK.

I agree: voters can consider whatever they think is relevant; and I can suggest, with reason (as in "critical thought"), things that might be beneficial to consider as a voter, yes?

...If you want to get to know the perspective of citizens of other countries, the time to do that is when you travel abroad...

Personally, I think it's always a good time to consider the perspectives of others...thus my tango with you despite all the bad timing and sore toes.

...The fact that so many citizens from other countries have made America their new home and have naturalized, the perspective from their former countries is already being projected automatically when they vote. Isn't that good enough for you?

Nope. We can always improve and should NOT look ONLY to those in our little corner of the world for opportunities to do so...just my opinion.

 

[ParanoidAndroid]

Cicero,

I know I'm beating my head against a wall at this point, but...

Once more: why are you offended at the suggestion that to consider their perspectives is beneficial?????

 

[Lonewulf]

Oliver's posts show a definite benighteness regarding his own country's checkered past.

You brought up "ein Reich" when talking to me, so don't just bring up how it's "only" yet another dig at Oliver. That would be a lie.

I'm well aware that there was a dictator here, in Germany, and that a lot of strife occurred in this country.

America also has reputation involving treatment of the Native Americans, treatment of African Americans, treatment of various minority groups, and still has parts where bigotry is seen (although it's impossible to fully get rid of bigotry without changing the population's minds, admittedly). America has come a far way because the flaws were pointed out, and people fought for them, fought for change.

Germany, during the Nazi regime, eventually was overthrown thanks also to fighting for change (and defending against a dangerous opponent).

In short, and here's just a theory: Identifying flaws is a good way to fight against them.

You do not have to go back to WWII either for evidence of Germany's perfidy on the world stage.

Sure, and Germany NEVER got criticized by people outside of Germany, right? Who cares what you foreigners think about the Nazi regime?

If they believe they can do whatever they want, then they can -- up yours, rest of the world.

So, by your own logic, he shouldn't give two flying fricks what you think today; and neither should Hitler have before. It can apply to everyone -- screw you, rest of the world. Want us to stop massacring millions of people? Screw you, rest of the world, we can do whatever we want. Dafur? Screw you, rest of the world. Electing dictators? Screw you, rest of the world! (Although American assassins did kill some democratically appointed individuals and implanted their own dictators, but still, screw you rest of the world!) Funny how that works, huh?

As much as the U.S. is criticized by the rest of the world it hasn't slowed down the number of foreigners who wish to immigrate to this country.

I wonder why that is?

Certainly haven't seen a lack of people wanting to see the sights of Germany or immigrate into Germany, in spite of it being an evil bunch of liars, according to you. I've seen plenty of people wanting to attend Heidelberg University, Japanese tourists are a dime a dozen here, and people come from all over Europe, from the U.S., and from several other countries (including the Middle East).

I wonder why that is? Isn't Germany so awful bad compared to the spic-and-span clean United States? Isn't the United States the best country, period, and all others hellholes filled with evil people that cannot draw a single opinion worth considering? Isn't this a hellhole filled with people comparable from China or Iran or Iraq? OMG THE MUNICH OLYMPICS!* Totally a sign that I am now in a place festering with evil. No one should ever want to go here; immigrants only go to the U.S.! How silly of me.

I will ponder this while walking down Philosopher's Way in Heidelberg and looking upon the redstone buildings, while walking through large crowds of tourists, and talking to the students in my class, many of which are very thankful for the simple opportunity of studying in one of the prettiest cities in the world, and learn partly about a rich German culture that has thousands of years of history behind it.



Either way, this is yet another case of, "Other people do bad things, therefore whatever I do is gold!" which is always hilarious. It's great how often people revert to outright fallacies and get rid of anything known as "logic" as soon as things turn political -- really pathetic.

You stand here and criticize other countries, then claim that no one can criticize the U.S. or offer any opinions whatsoever (or that their opinions shouldn't be considered).

This is ultimately an Ad Hominem attack -- "If you aren't inside the U.S., then you cannot draw a valid opinion about the U.S.".

Or perhaps, "Even if it's valid, I will arbitrarily ignore it because you are outside of an arbitrary political line".

And yet another reason why you and your kind belong on my ignore list.





*Not like the U.S. politicians or presidents have never been involved in corruption or scandals! I mean, all those events that end in "-gate"? TOTALLY made up conspiracy ********, right?




EDIT: Mark Twain would agree how awful German is. After all, he wrote The Awful German Language, wherein he talks about the pervading evil and corruption in Germany, making it a totally awful place compared to the U.S.

Wait, no, it was only a funny look German language. (He's right on every bit of that, by the way. Sheesh, German is frikkin' hard.)

Mark Twain gave a lovely speech here in Heidelberg, and imprinted himself on the minds of Germans everywhere. I have yet to meet a German instructor that hasn't heard of Mark Twain's address. In fact, Mark Twain was quoted as saying (I'm paraphrasing) that the quickest way to end prejudice is by frequent travel around the world; something that people like Cicero and Darth Rotor, perhaps, can learn from.

I'd rather be closer to Mark Twain than closer to Cicero in mindset.

 

[Lonewulf]

Cicero,

I know I'm beating my head against a wall at this point, but...

Once more: why are you offended at the suggestion that to consider their perspectives is beneficial?????

+1

 

[Cicero]

I'm well aware that there was a dictator here, in Germany, and that a lot of strife occurred in this country.

America also has reputation involving treatment of the Native Americans, treatment of African Americans, treatment of various minority groups, and still has parts where bigotry is seen (although it's impossible to fully get rid of bigotry without changing the population's minds, admittedly). America has come a far way because the flaws were pointed out, and people fought for them, fought for change.

Germany, during the Nazi regime, eventually was overthrown thanks also to fighting for change (and defending against a dangerous opponent).

In short, and here's just a theory: Identifying flaws is a good way to fight against them.

Sure, and Germany NEVER got criticized by people outside of Germany, right? Who cares what you foreigners think about the Nazi regime?

Certainly haven't seen a lack of people wanting to see the sights of Germany or immigrate into Germany, in spite of it being an evil bunch of liars, according to you. I've seen plenty of people wanting to attend Heidelberg University, Japanese tourists are a dime a dozen here, and people come from all over Europe, from the U.S., and from several other countries (including the Middle East).

I wonder why that is? Isn't Germany so awful bad compared to the spic-and-span clean United States? Isn't the United States the best country, period, and all others hellholes filled with evil people that cannot draw a single opinion worth considering? Isn't this a hellhole filled with people comparable from China or Iran or Iraq? OMG THE MUNICH OLYMPICS!* Totally a sign that I am now in a place festering with evil. No one should ever want to go here; immigrants only go to the U.S.! How silly of me.

You stand here and criticize other countries, then claim that no one can criticize the U.S. or offer any opinions whatsoever (or that their opinions shouldn't be considered).

And yet another reason why you and your kind belong on my ignore list.

Mark Twain gave a lovely speech here in Heidelberg, and imprinted himself on the minds of Germans everywhere. I have yet to meet a German instructor that hasn't heard of Mark Twain's address. In fact, Mark Twain was quoted as saying (I'm paraphrasing) that the quickest way to end prejudice is by frequent travel around the world; something that people like Cicero and Darth Rotor, perhaps, can learn from.

Too bad Germans eschewed Samuel Clemens true sentiments shortly after his visit and continued to embrace prejudices and not just travel the world, but attempt to conquer it.

Nowhere in this thread, or anywhere else, have I stated what you said in the highlighted portion of your post. Who do you think overthrew the NSDAP in 1945? Germans? The only German who actually put his life on the line to assassinate Hitler was Count Colonel Klaus Von Stauffenberg. Is he remembered in Germany as a patriot or a traitor?

You call what happened in Germany during the 1930's and 40's "strife?" American history has some dark periods, but the Indian Wars, slavery, racism, and antisemitism can not hold a candle to what occurred in Germany and its conquered countries only 60+ years ago.

While Germany has a much longer history than America, its history of producing vile characters aside from the redoubtable Bach, Beethoven Mozart, Schiiler, Goethe, and Dürer, is legendary even before the 1930's: Georg Ritter Von Schonerer, Karl Lueger, Alfred Ploetz, Ludwig Woltmann
Alexander Tille, Ernst Haeckel, Wilhelm Marr, Hermann Ahlwardt, Fritz Haber, etc.

Of course there are tourists who visit Germany and tourists who visit the U.S. Is there any place in Germany the equivalent of Manhattan where American citizens, not just tourists, who are Irish, Jewish, Asian, Muslim, German, French, Italian, Spanish, Black and Indian live together on a 3 mile wide and 12 mile long Island? Maybe Heligoland?

 

[Lonewulf]

You know, in all your attempts to prove that America has a bigger penis, you just end up flapping your dick around in the breeze in a rather ugly way.

We're all "impressed". Now could you put it away, please?




I swear, it's people's jingoism "I R THE HOLIEST THAN ALL OF THOU" that cause all the actual problems in the world. Jingoism made by people just like you. You know what caused the holocaust? Hate against the "other". And you continually demonstrate your own hate against all non-americans with every post you make, Cicero.

It's people like you that make me want to move from the U.S. and get citizenship in another country. It's people like you that make America look bad, self-righteous, indignant, and hateful of everything that is "The Other".

You seem to be under the delusion that Germany actually supports the Nazi regime today. I guess they're all lying when they speak out against any form of fascism floating around here in Germany.

Nowhere in this thread, or anywhere else, have I stated what you said in the highlighted portion of your post.

Then you're getting away from the OP, which is about, you know, accepting criticism from people outside of the US, which started this whole thing.

Who do you think overthrew the NSDAP in 1945? Germans?

No.

The only German who actually put his life on the line to assassinate Hitler was Count Colonel Klaus Von Stauffenberg. Is he remembered in Germany as a patriot or a traitor?

"The only"? You can prove he was "the only"? There was no other, at all? Period? Full stop? Nice to know you're so sure.

Was he a villain or hero?

I don't know. You tell me.

Here's the Wikipedia URL on him in German.

Sure seems villainous to me!

Interesting film. I'm not sure if he's portrayed as a villain or a hero in 1977. Doubt he's a villain, though.

You call what happened in Germany during the 1930's and 40's "strife?"

Yes, as much as I call Russia's genocides and the Armenian genocide strife. Pretty damn nasty strife, but I don't think that it was exactly alone in genocides. It's given more pressure than any other genocide, but I think that the same thing behind the genocide in Germany is also behind any other genocide, all across the world and time. It's the same causes, just methods that make realizing such genocide very very potent.

By the way:

American history has some dark periods, but the Indian Wars, slavery, racism, and antisemitism can not hold a candle to what occured in Germany and its conquered countries only 60+ years ago.

Millions of people dying because they're Native American doesn't seem much better than millions of people dying because they're Jews, gypsies, or homosexuals. I'll just take your word that it's innately better and declare you the winner of the dick comparison contest. Yes, you're right, America totally was perfect and spotless, and Germany is the evil brooding country that can't possibly hold a candle to your perfect eminence.

You are also right on another thing. Because Hitler did outrageously awful things SIXTY YEARS AGO, means that no one in Germany can ever have an opinion on the United States today.

Thank you for living in the past.

For people like me, well, we're in the future. We look behind us, and we see you.

Your self-righteous indignation at Germany's events isn't legitimate speaking out of awful events decades ago -- it's an attempt to smear the present opinions of people living in Germany.

But you're too busy patting yourself on the back for being a perfect American to actually even think that someone "Other" can possibly be good. All the other countries are all badawfulwrong to you.

Sad.

While Germany has a much longer history than America, its history of producing vile characters aside from the redoubtable Bach, Beethoven Mozart, Schiiler, Goethe, and Dürer, is legendary even before the 1930's: Georg Ritter Von Schonerer, Karl Lueger, Alfred Ploetz, Ludwig Woltmann
Alexander Tille, Ernst Haeckel, Wilhelm Marr, Hermann Ahlwardt, Fritz Haber, etc.

Now the bigotry comes into full light.

You admit that Germany has a long history.

Then you pull out villains in it and point the finger, PROVING how evil Germany is.

Yes. There have never been villains in France, Spain, Italy, or in any country in Europe throughout the thousands of years in their existence...

You really are demonstrating your bigotry.

Of course there are tourists who visit Germany and tourists who visit the U.S. Is there any place in Germany the equivalent of Manhattan where American citizens, not just tourists, who are Irish, Jewish, Asian, Muslim, German, French, Italian, Spanish, Black and Indian live together on a 3 mile wide and 12 mile long Island? Maybe Heligoland?

Heidelberg. Full stop.

Asian -- yes. Jewish -- yes. Muslim -- oh yeah, definitely. German -- yes, of course. French -- yes. Italian -- yes. Spanish -- yes. Black -- oh yeah, plenty of people straight from Africa. Indian -- yes, actually. I saw a band playing recently that were Native American; not sure if they lived in Heidelberg, though. It kinda makes sense that there would be more Native Americans in America, though. If you mean "Indian" from India, though... yes, definitely.

Also add in:

Hungarian, Bulgarian, Tunisian, Iranian, Arabic, American, English (from England), South American, Greece...

Need I go on?

In fact, I was taught under a greek instructor, born to parents from Greece, in Heidelberg (I believe; she may just live nearby).

Furthermore, Heidelberg, Eppelheim, and the several small villages are all close enough together to qualify for the small amount of space you mention above. Not only that, but it's also not all one big city, which speaks even more for all the different cultures -- after all, with a large enough population in one place, you'll see SOME kind of mixture.


Please take your jingoistic prejudice against other countries elsewhere, because on this case you are obviously very very ignorant.

I also do not suffer bigots of any stripe, and I'm tired of your own bigotry.

Thank you.