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If Saddam Had Stayed

If the administration made it all up, as LeftySergeant alleges, why were the troops inoculated against anthrax and smallpox before deployment? Why were they issued with NBC suits?

Well, it is now plain that you have no significant military training, skills or knowledge or you would not ask such a flaming ridiculous question. Bring some evidence and stop spamming the board with the same old BS.
 
But lefty does. :rolleyes:

You doubt the superiority of Lefty's military mind?

Lefty's proposed stragedy is flawless. Whack Saddam from above. Nevermind the fact that was attempted repeatedly, in two wars, without success. Just assume it will work. Then just trust to luck that the resulting huge power vacuum will be filled by...Jesus.
 
Well, it is now plain that you have no significant military training, skills or knowledge or you would not ask such a flaming ridiculous question. Bring some evidence and stop spamming the board with the same old BS.

Please explain how thwacking Saddam with an airstrike would transition the country to democracy and prevent Islamists, Baathists or foreign proxies from taking power.
 
You doubt the superiority of Lefty's military mind?

Lefty's proposed stragedy is flawless. Whack Saddam from above. Nevermind the fact that was attempted repeatedly, in two wars, without success. Just assume it will work. Then just trust to luck that the resulting huge power vacuum will be filled by...Jesus.

Nope. The only way that you transition a country from depotism to democracy is by the rise of a democratic movement within that country or by invasion and occupation after a war in which the conquered people realized they were wrong.

That's why it worked in Germany and Japan but will never work in Afghanistan and may not, in the long-term, work in Iraq.

We had neither the resources not the need to do this in Iraq.

And you show yourselves to be utterly incompetent to debate military strategy if you think that Rummy was mentally up to being Secretary of Defense.
 
Nope. The only way that you transition a country from depotism to democracy is by the rise of a democratic movement within that country or by invasion and occupation after a war in which the conquered people realized they were wrong.

That's why it worked in Germany and Japan but will never work in Afghanistan and may not, in the long-term, work in Iraq.

We had neither the resources not the need to do this in Iraq.

And you show yourselves to be utterly incompetent to debate military strategy if you think that Rummy was mentally up to being Secretary of Defense.

Then why did you say Saddam could have just been taken out with an airstrike?
 
Nope. The only way that you transition a country from depotism to democracy is by the rise of a democratic movement within that country or by invasion and occupation after a war in which the conquered people realized they were wrong.

That's why it worked in Germany and Japan but will never work in Afghanistan and may not, in the long-term, work in Iraq.

I could not disagree more. People realizing they are wrong has little if any impact on their attitude toward democracy. That's a freaking non-sequitur. I can't remember the last time someone said to me, "I realize now I was wrong. And I am now overcome with an overpowering urge to vote."

Plus, the Iraqis have been consistently beating the crap out of all the Western democracies in voter turnout, even under the threat of terrorist attack.

One thing seems certain: Iraqis sure as hell have more commitment to democracy than the angry, spoiled wussies of the Western left.

To neutralize your empirically unsupported, non-sequitur-infected opinion, I'll just pour some of this on it. Brace yourself. It's going to sting.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704187204575101904230528176.html


In 2002, a presidential election was held in Iraq. Saddam Hussein won it by a margin of 11,445,638 to zero. "Whether that's because they love their leader—as many people said they do—or for other reasons, was hard to tell," reported CBS News's Tom Fenton from Baghdad.

You can't say they aren't fair and balanced over at CBS.

Another election has now been held in Iraq, this time involving 19 million voters, 50,000 polling stations, 6,200 candidates, 325 parliamentary seats and 86 parties. In the run-up to the vote, the general view among Iraqis and foreign observers alike was that the outcome was "too close to call." Linger over the words: "Too close to call" has never before been part of the Arab political lexicon.

But democracy has finally arrived, first by force of American arms, next by dint of Iraqi will. It's a remarkable thing, not just in the context of the past seven years of U.S. involvement, or the eight decades of Iraq's sovereign existence, but in the much longer sweep of Arab civilization. Paleontologists have described similar moments in evolution, when some natural cataclysm permits a nimbler class of animals to take the place of the planet's former masters.

Just so in Iraq: the Cretaceous period of the T Rex and the pterosaur is at last drawing to a close. George W. Bush, in all his subtlety, was their mass-extinction event.

In the West it's a different story. Among the most remarkable trends of recent years has been the disenchantment with the very idea of democracy.

It's a trend that expresses itself in various ways: the admiration for authoritarian (typically Chinese) efficiencies; the sense that democracies are incapable of rising to the "challenges" of health care and global warming; the distaste for the tea parties in the U.S. But nowhere has it been more consistent than in the West's commentary about Iraq.

It began nearly on the day that Saddam's statue in central Baghdad was brought down by American soldiers as jubilant Iraqis looked on. "This war was not worth a child's finger," wrote the English novelist Julian Barnes in a Guardian op-ed. That was published fully a year before the insurgency got underway, when the argument could not be made—as it was later made—that democracy is all well and good but that order of any kind, even tyrannical order, is much to be preferred.

For the next seven years, the insurgents murdered coalition soldiers and Iraqi civilians with equal abandon, right up to the morning of the election. Yet somehow the killing sprees (grotesquely replete with the cutting off of children's fingers) were treated by the world's great opiners not as the acts of evil men to be confronted and stopped, but purely as a function of the American presence in Iraq.

In this strange moral calculus, all the blood that was shed—including American blood—was on America's hands. It was also, by implication, a stain on America's "experiment" of "imposing" democracy on so obviously unwilling a people.

In the midst of those bloodbaths, the U.S. ceded civilian control to Iraqi authorities, who then conducted four democratic elections. I still remember the incredulity among the war's opponents, bordering on open dismay, when the parliamentary elections five years ago proved an inspiring success.

But the critics could relax, at least for a few years: The killing in Iraq did not abate. Successive Iraqi prime ministers were treated with none of the deference Western diplomats would routinely accord the masters of Egypt or Vietnam or even Syria. The division of Iraq was a respectable topic of conversation.

And yet throughout all of this, Iraqis somehow held fast to their idea of a democratic country. How was that possible? How could they not behave according to type, as inveterate sectarians and anti-Americans? Didn't they perhaps miss the political clarity that dictatorship uniquely provides?

The late Michael Kelly knew the answer, and the answer was that Iraqis, unlike most of us in the West, knew tyranny, and therefore also knew what it meant to thirst for freedom. Writing just before his untimely death on the road to Baghdad, he observed:

"Tyranny truly is a horror: an immense, endlessly bloody, endlessly painful, endlessly varied, endless crime against not humanity in the abstract but a lot of humans in the flesh. It is, as Orwell wrote, a jackboot forever stomping on a human face.

"I understand why some dislike the idea, and fear the ramifications of America as a liberator. But I do not understand why they do not see that anything is better than life with your face under the boot. And that any rescue of a people under the boot (be they Afghan, Kuwaiti or Iraqi) is something to be desired. Even if the rescue is less than perfectly realized. Even if the rescuer is a great, overmuscled, bossy, selfish oaf. Or would you, for yourself, choose the boot?"
 
Wall Street Journal? Seriously? You expect me to take an article in a Murdih rag as a valid argument?

:dl:
 
Polling consistently shows that a majority of Iraqis favor democracy.

And why wouldn't they? The Baath regime was ghoulish. They brainwashed the Fedayeen Saddam since birth to worship Saddam. They showed footage on TV of them tearing dogs to pieces and eating them. The message was, if you step out of line, these people will come and get you.

Saddam had no right to rule. I would support any democracy removing him from power at any time, for any reason.
 
Saddam had no right to rule. I would support any democracy removing him from power at any time, for any reason.

So maybe we need to do the same to Saudi Arabia next. Then send in massive troop formations to guard Darfur, maybe overthrow the whackadoodle regime there.

And let's not forget Myanmar. They need to be sorted out.
 
Wall Street Journal? Seriously? You expect me to take an article in a Murdih rag as a valid argument?

Beats the hell out of the opinion of someone who thinks realizing they are wrong makes people crave democracy. Would the converse also be true? If you realize you are right about something, will you be overcome by an overpowering urge to emigrate to Saudi Arabia?

Beats the hell out of the opinion of someone who judges the validity of an argument not on it's evident merit, but instead ostensibly based on the owner of the "rag" in which it is published, but actually based on his inability to counter the argument.
 
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So maybe we need to do the same to Saudi Arabia next. Then send in massive troop formations to guard Darfur, maybe overthrow the whackadoodle regime there.

And let's not forget Myanmar. They need to be sorted out.

Hmm. That looks like a cross between a false dilemma and a false dichotomy. Or would it be a false "multi-chotomy"?

Dude. Don't make me have to coin words to describe your wierd obfuscations. For your own sake, as well as mine.

Actually, it wouldn't be a bad idea, if China would renounce totalitarianism and kick in a sizeable portion of it's vast and currently totally useless army. But failing that, I guess we have to pick our shots. And those who do not kick in are unqualified to nitpick our choices of tyrannical targets.
 
My point is that being the sort of nation that does what we despise other nations for doing does not give us the ability to do good.

It was not our place to decide that Iraq needs "democracy," even assuming that the morons who thought up the idea of invading had the slightest clue how to do it.

The thugs wanted to buiold a test bed for their idiotic ecconomic ideals. That may yet bite us all in the butt.

The creeps in PNAC have this bizarre idea that capitalism on the Western model is essential to human freedom, the saource of all that is decent in the world. There is a good reason why much of the world will feel that this is a threat. With our capitalism would go our banking system.

Our system is based on sin.

I don't even think that the morons took that into account.
 
...the morons...The thugs...The creeps...threat...capitalism...sin...the morons.

Just thought I'd show you how to save some time. All those intermediate words, while no doubt meant to simulate compelling arguments, actually only detract from your central message, which I have taken the liberty to condense into a hard-hitting stream of invective.

This stream of invective I've isolated forms the backbone of all your posts. Why obscure it in the midst of various word salads?
 
My point is that being the sort of nation that does what we despise other nations for doing does not give us the ability to do good.

What nations does US despise for turning other countries into democracies?

It was not our place to decide that Iraq needs "democracy," even assuming that the morons who thought up the idea of invading had the slightest clue how to do it.

Was it Saddam's place to decide Iraq needs genocidal Baathist dictatorship?

The liberation of Iraq was part of the broader strategy in the war on Islamofascism. There's no denying that democracy now has a foothold in the Arab world. This pissed off a lot of Islamofascists. Good. We're at war with them, and We're supposed to cause endless trouble for them. We're supposed to sit there and invent ways to **** with them.

The thugs wanted to buiold a test bed for their idiotic ecconomic ideals. That may yet bite us all in the butt.

There's no need to recourse to conspiracies. What they wanted was announced several times in congress, at the UN, and in public speeches. A stable democratic Iraq, at peace with its neighbors, an ally of the US, that does use its oil wealth to expand a parasitic totalitarian regime.


The creeps in PNAC have this bizarre idea that capitalism on the Western model is essential to human freedom, the saource of all that is decent in the world. There is a good reason why much of the world will feel that this is a threat. With our capitalism would go our banking system.

More red herrings. More irrelevant, dubious statements.

Our system is based on sin.

Wha? :eye-poppi
 
Then let them take the country for themselves.

Maybe you can answer the question that Lefty avoids; How will we make sure Islamists, Baathists or Iranian proxies don't end up taking the country for themselves?
 
Maybe you can answer the question that Lefty avoids; How will we make sure Islamists, Baathists or Iranian proxies don't end up taking the country for themselves?
There isn't a lot we can do about that.

My answer? Don't care. We already have crazy regimes everywhere. If Saddam ends up being replaced by Iranian or some Taliban-esque force, we'll only have ourselves to blame.

If they survive as a democracy after we leave. Great. I hope that's the case. Regardless, I don't think it was a gamble we should have made. Even with a stable democratic Iraq, an unstable Baathist Iraq wasn't much of a threat to us anyway. It was a huge investment of blood and treasure for no measurable gain for the US.
 
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