If Saddam Had Stayed

[BeAChooser]

I'd think that you'd have at least given me ONE that mentioned such a thing, what with it being so crucial to the point you're trying to make.

It's not crucial to me because I'm not trying to convince you. That's a hopeless task. I'm going to let you wallow because you obviously didn't pay much attention to news before and after the war, and you're too lazy to do a brief browser search that would confirm the story. So be it.

 

[The Charnel Expanse]

Nice dodge, White Goodman.
Show me proof of your claims or stfu.

 

[BeAChooser]

I've been dredging through google links for over half an hour now and STILL can't find anything about Jayyusi having been treated at Saddam's private hospital OR the plotting having begun prior to the U.S. invasion.

LOL! Then I guess you shall remain clueless because you apparently were unable to read the excerpts from the articles I posted. First, you don't have the right name for the terrorist mastermind who instigated and funded the plot (it's there in the excerpts), and second, the articles clearly indicate that the meeting that initiated the plot took place in Baghdad before the war because it took place in 2002.

 

[The Charnel Expanse]

First, you don't have the right name for the terrorist mastermind who instigated and funded the plot

Their self-professed leader was identified as Azmi al-Jayyusi.

What?

 

[BeAChooser]

What?

Who do the articles say gave him the money to fund the attacks and where do the articles say he met that person?

 

[The Charnel Expanse]

There seems to be quite a bit of a disconnect between what you're saying the articles say and what they actually say.

Zarqawi and Jayyousi [or however his name is spelled] became acquainted IN AFGHANISTAN prior to OIF. They later met in Iraq to hatch the Amman plot after OIF began. Nowhere does it say they met IN IRAQ PRIOR TO OIF.

 

[SezMe]

... This was discussed extensively here at JREF with dozens of sources being supplied. You couldn't have missed discussion of this in the news ...

There's your problem right there, BAC. You confuse news (implying factual reporting) with your biased opinion pieces that you constantly cite here. When I see you citing wnd or fox, I know you are cherry-picking and that the cite cannot be used to support whatever wild hair you happen to be pursuing.

 

[bit_pattern]

Iran's influence in Iraq has waned considerably.

http://www.rferl.org/content/After_Elections_Iran_Remains_A_Major_Player_In_Iraq/1977766.html

 

[BeAChooser]

They later met in Iraq to hatch the Amman plot after OIF began. They later met in Iraq to hatch the Amman plot after OIF began. Nowhere does it say they met IN IRAQ PRIOR TO OIF.

LOL! You can't read can you. I'll guess I'll have to spoon feed you then.

Note the bold portion of these excerpts from what I posted:

After the fall of Afghanistan, I met [Abu Musab] al-Zarqawi once again in Iraq. In Iraq, Abu Musab told me to go to Jordan along with Muwaffaq Udwan to prepare for a military operation in Jordan," said Jayyusi. Once he was in Jordan, Zarqawi sent him money via couriers said Jayyusi. "He also supplied me, through messengers, with forged passports, identity cards and car registrations and all that is necessary."

al-Jayousi, identified as the head of the Jordanian cell of al-Qaida, appeared Monday in a 20-minute taped program and described meeting Jordanian militant Abu-Musab al-Zarqawi in neighboring Iraq to plan the foiled plot.

Jaiousi admits meeting with Zarqawi in Baghdad, receiving instructions for attacks … snip … Jaiousi said he met with Zarqawi and two other men in Iraq. "Zarqawi told me there would be military operations in Jordan soon and we needed to prepare for them... he gave me around $50,000, weapons, explosive devices and instructions to launch attacks. Our first target was State Prosecutor Mahmoud Obeidat," Jaiousi was quoted as saying in the videotape. A second target was a General Intelligence Department (GID) officer who had blue eyes and a white Mercedes, he added. Jaiousi said he infiltrated into the Kingdom from Iraq in February 2002

Now that last bolded statement is key, CE. He said he met with Zarqawi in Baghdad THEN infiltrated into Jordan from Iraq in February 2002. When did the invasion of Iraq occur, CE?

 

[The Charnel Expanse]

So let's assume that this is accurate [and I have my doubts that it is, as I cannot find any corroborating primary source, and the timeline frankly doesn't make much sense].

What does this mean?
Did Saddam know that the meeting took place?
If he did know, did he support the plan?

If you can't definitively answer "yes" to both of the above questions, then you've failed to support your claim that Saddam was actively providing safe haven for al Qaeda terrorists before OIF.

The fact that nobody in the Bush Admin. made any mention of Zarqawi or Jayyousi prior to the launch of OIF leads me to believe that they had no idea this was going on. And therefore it would've been absurd for them to try to backfill the dwindling support for the war in 2005 by bringing this up [and as we both know, they tried to cook up a lot of pretty absurd justifications].

 

[BeAChooser]

Originally Posted by BeAChooser
Iran's influence in Iraq has waned considerably.

http://www.rferl.org/content/After_E...q/1977766.html

http://crooksandliars.com/nicole-belle/biden-irans-influence-iraq-greatly-ex

August 24, 2010

Iran's influence in Iraq has been exaggerated and Tehran's efforts to shape parliamentary elections in the country "utterly failed," US Vice President Joe Biden said on Monday.

... snip ...

"The Iranian government spent over 100 million dollars trying to affect the outcome of this last election to sway the Iraqi people, and they utterly failed," he said, referring to the March polls.

"And it's because politics and nationalism has broken out in Iraq. The Iraqi people voted for their desired candidates, none of whom, none of whom -- let me emphasize this -- none of whom were wanted by Iran."

 

[The Charnel Expanse]

By the way.
You know what the "Hamburg Cell" was, right?

Do you think the U.S. should've invaded Germany and overthrown their government following 9/11 as well?

 

[BeAChooser]

If you can't definitively answer "yes" to all three of the above questions, then you've failed to support your claim that Saddam was actively providing safe haven for al Qaeda terrorists before OIF.

LOL! I can play that game too, CE. Since you are 100% sure that Iraq had no WMD, you shouldn't have any problem answering these 6 questions:

1) Tell us the contents of the trucks that were observed going to Syria before the war (that a "credible" source told the ISG was WMD related)?

2) Tell us the contents of the concrete bunker that was built under the Euphrates in 2002 (that locals said contained WMD) and that was looted before the CIA (in all it's *wisdom*) decided to take a look at it in 2006?

3) Tell us why Iraq selectively sanitized files, computers and facilities thought related to WMD? They did this before, during and even after the invasion, according to the ISG. What were they hiding?

4) Tell us where that still viable binary sarin shell that turned up as an IED actually came from and how you *know* it was the only one?

5) Tell us what the documents dated 2002 from Saddam that were found in Iraq but not translated until much later meant when they ordered "special" materials to be hidden ("special" materials was the way Iraq referred to WMD at the time)?

6) Tell us why you think invading Iraq was only about finding completed WMD munitions, and not precursors and the means to produce WMD as well (you see the ISG concluded that Iraq had not given up it's pursuit of WMD and that Saddam planned to reconstitute his chemical munitions within six months to a year after the UN gave Iraq a clean bill of health and sanctions ended)?

Hmmmmmm?

 

[The Charnel Expanse]

Ever hear of Russell's Teapot?

 

[BeAChooser]

By the way.
You know what the "Hamburg Cell" was, right?

Of course. I also know the day planner of al-Ani (you know, the Iraqi Intelligence agent handling "special" projects at the Czech embassy) was discovered to have an entry about a meeting with a "Hamburg Student" on the very day that one of the Hamburg Cell's more important members, Mohammed Atta, was reportedly seen at a meeting with him in Prague by a Czech Intelligence service informant. This is important because Atta listed his occupation as "Hamburg Student" on the travel documents he'd previously used to visit Prague. This is important because during the time this meeting reportedly occurred, Atta disappeared from the radar screen in the US. Just after he'd taken out $8000 in cash from his joint 9/11 hijacker bank account. This is important because a secret CIA memo, released by the Senate Intelligence Committee, cited evidence that Iraqi intelligence bankrolled Mohamed Atta in the months leading up to 9/11. That memo said Atta met as many as four times in Prague with al-Ani prior to the 9/11 attacks. The Czech government stated their certainty that Atta did meet al-Ani on a previous occasion. The 911 Commission said Atta "is known to have been in Prague on two occasions" — once for a single night in December 1994, and once for a single night in June 2000. Curiously enough, 3 days after the 2000 meeting, a large amount of money showed up in Atta's bank account. Three days after the alleged April 2001 meeting, a large amount of money was again deposited to Atta's bank account according to various sources. Would you like to talk some more about the Hamburg cell ... and Iraq, CE?

 

[BeAChooser]

Ever hear of Russell's Teapot?

I take it you don't want to answer my 6 questions. And I thought you knew everything about Iraq.

 

[The Charnel Expanse]

I'll get to your latest loads of hogwash and conjecture tomorrow. Going to bed now.

Though I will mention that when in custody al Ani denied having ever met Atta. And the "Habbush letter" that was cited as evidence of their rendezvous was a forgery.

Oh, and there was never any hard evidence presented that Atta was even IN Prague on the date of the supposed meeting ^source.

So there.

[you see how that gets annoying?]

 

[bit_pattern]

Ever hear of Russell's Teapot?

No, but I have now, that's a good one. Cheers!

 

[BeAChooser]

Though I will mention that when in custody al Ani denied having ever met Atta.

LOL! Do you honestly think al-Ani would have admitted ANY connection between him and 9/11? That would have been stupid on his part and he was definitely not stupid.

And the "Habbush letter" that was cited as evidence of their rendezvous was a forgery.

Nice strawman. Because I've NEVER mentioned the Habbush letter in ANY discussion about al-Ani, Atta and an Iraqi connection to the events of 9/11.

Oh, and there was never any hard evidence presented that Atta was even IN Prague on the date of the supposed meeting

Of course, that logic cuts both ways. There is absolutely NO hard evidence that Atta was anywhere in the US around the date of the supposed meeting. None. No car rentals. No hotel bills. No receipts of any kind. No phone calls. No cash withdrawals. No sightings. Nothing. He just withdraw $8000 from his bank and disappeared for about a week ... about the amount of time required to travel to Europe, meet someone, and return. And of course we do know that Atta and the other hijackers had false papers and traveled under aliases. Spanish authorities revealed during their investigations of 9/11 that they found that both Atta and Ramzi bin al-Shibh (Atta's al Qaeda Hamburg-cell associate) had acquired false passports from Algerians in Spain. And we also know that the passports acquired in Spain were not the only false papers the hijackers, including Atta, acquired. The fact of the matter is that you don't know where Atta was during the time a Czech informant said he saw a man matching Atta's description meet al-Ani. The fact is you can't even tell us why Atta needed $8000 in cash (but that would have been about the right amount of cash to travel to Europe and back.) You actually know very little, CE.

 

[FireGarden]

You must be aware of the fact there was a chemical bomb plot against the US embassy in Amman that was funded by al-qaeda associated terrorists in Iraq.

Which part of Iraq? Was it up North, where the USA suspected Zarqawi had a chemical weapons plant?

And that plot began in meetings in Baghdad, right under Saddam's nose.

If it was right under Saddam's nose, then why did he have Zarqawi build his chemical weapons factory up north? Saddam had quite a bit of trouble controlling that part of Iraq.

A good case can be made that the reason the plot failed is because of intelligence garnered from our presence in Iraq after the invasion and because we kept the mastermind of the plot more focused on running and hiding than overseeing the details of the operation? If so, perhaps that attack would have occurred and tens of thousands of Jordanians would now be dead (along with everyone in the US embassy in Amman at the time). Those were the estimates of casualties had the plot succeeded.

A good case could be made that the Bush admin wouldn't have given a damn about such an attack, since they took no action against what they were told was a chemical weapons lab under the control of Zarqawi.

I knew this would be ignored:

Worried about chemical weapons in Iraq, circa 2002? Then perhaps it's time to link this story again:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4431601/

In June 2002, U.S. officials say intelligence had revealed that Zarqawi and members of al-Qaida had set up a weapons lab at Kirma, in northern Iraq, producing deadly ricin and cyanide.

The Pentagon quickly drafted plans to attack the camp with cruise missiles and airstrikes and sent it to the White House, where, according to U.S. government sources, the plan was debated to death in the National Security Council.

“Here we had targets, we had opportunities, we had a country willing to support casualties, or risk casualties after 9/11 and we still didn’t do it,” said Michael O’Hanlon, military analyst with the Brookings Institution.

Four months later, intelligence showed Zarqawi was planning to use ricin in terrorist attacks in Europe.

The Pentagon drew up a second strike plan, and the White House again killed it. By then the administration had set its course for war with Iraq.

It's been ignored the other times I've seen it posted on this forum.

BTW, what would have happened to Saddam's army if he had sent it north to take out Zarqawi?