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Idealism is dangerous

drkitten said:
So can fire. I think it was Washington who famously said that "government, like fire, is a useful servant, but a fearful master." I don't think anyone in possession of even a few of his senses would deny that fire is dangerous, even while admitting that it is useful.



No, the danger enters much earlier than that. When the (good) ends overcome the (evil) means, it is already dangerous. This is especially true since the ends may never come about no matter the means we employ. If my end goal is to eliminate abortions, and my means are to assassinate doctors who perform them, then I have just justified my becoming a murderer -- and, more damningly, abortions will probably still continue even after I am caught, convicted, and executed.

It is precisely the ideals -- those shining visions of a City on a Hill -- that will enable people to do almost anything to achieve. Remember, almost no one thinks evil of themselves. Everyone sitting in jail today is innocent -- just ask them. Almost to a man, they can justify their actions and behavior.
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You said it much better than I did.
 
Hokulele said:
I have to agree with NewtonTrino and drkitten. You may want to read up a bit on State Shinto. This Wiki article is fairly decent, if rather basic, and it is important to note that in the Meiji government, Shinto priests were under government control.
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Thanks for the reference.
 
I don't know about all idealism being dangerous. I guess it truthfully depends on what the ideal is...
 
Ideology is a fact of human nature. Everyone has their own ideas about what would make a perfect world.

It is absolutist ideology that is dangerous. Any ideology taken to such extreme levels, that:

* It forces other people, who might not agree with it, to comply.

And/Or

* The rules do not apply to the enforcers: They are allowed to be as brutally nasty as they want, in the name of promoting their ideals

.... is dangerous.

Different people will fall into different levels of absolutism in their ideals. The more extreme in the absolute end, the more dangerous they are.

Idealologies do not necessarily need to be religious. They could be political, or social, or even "scientific". (I place the word "scientific" in quotes, because science is supposed to build provisional ideas, not absolute truths. But, that doesn't stop some scientists from trying to promote absolute truths in their "scientific" ideas, anyway.)
 
I'd be snarky, but Fuelair isn't entirely wrong here. Japan was actually very much steeped in the religion of State Shinto. The Emperor was considered a "god (powerful spirit, hard to translate actually) that walked as a man".

However, the LTTE, who are big-time suicide bombers, are not steeped in religious ideology, and even have targeted Muslims (as well as Buddhists). They're considered secular terrorists.
 
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Wowbagger,

Well, it's sounds to be a pretty unreasonable issue when the enforcers of the rules do not have to follow the rules...
 
INRM said:
Wowbagger,

Well, it's sounds to be a pretty unreasonable issue when the enforcers of the rules do not have to follow the rules...
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Which would be a pretty good test of any ideal. If the people pushing the particular issue walk the walk and talk the talk, you might be tempted to examine what they are all about, but if it is clear they operate from a do as I say not as I, then a dirty big red flag needs to go up over that one.
 
If you have good ideals, adhering to them in an extreme manner will be extremely good. If you have bad ideals, adhering to them extremely will be extremely bad.

So, if you are bad, be wishy-washy about it. If you're good, be extreme about it :)
 
Cavemonster said:
Everything I've read on suicide bombers suggests that it isn't as much a matter of poor logic as active and rigorous brainwashing.
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Everything I've read on single-payer socialized health care takeoverers suggests that it isn't as much a matter of poor logic in recognizing the cumulative murderous effect of slowed technological growth as active and rigorous brainwashing.


NewtonTrino said:
Who's doing the brainwashing and why? Someone is making the decision somewhere based on some reasoning or another.
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Good question. My bet is power hungry politicians supporting the evolution of ego-stroking, you're a good guy memes as planks in the political overmeme that's replacing religion in jamming itself down everyone's throat, literally at the point of a gun, with the approval of the supporters.

I shall now await the regurgitation of ego-stroking defensive memes. Let's watch!

:popcorn1
 
My view is that ideologies are nothing more than a model of how the world is; unfortunately people often forget that their particular ideology is just a model and when the world fails to conform to how their model says it should be they take it on themselves to try and make the world fit their ideology.
 
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