ID/Creationism - How fast were extinctions?

[Nick Harman]

You have stated that "kind" is not the same thing as "species." You have stated that not every species was taken onto the ark:So where did all the other currently existing species come from?

Example: 2 dogs on the ark. Every dog we have on this planet came from these 2 dogs. Not evolution, but variation or micro-evolution if you would like.

Actually, one definition of a species is that, if two animals are able to produce fertile offspring, they are of the same species. Animals of different species can sometimes produce offspring, but the offspring are usually infertile. Do you know what a mule is?

Yes, a male donkey and a female horse. Horse and donkey same kind of animal. That seems pretty obvious just by looking at them.

 

[Nick Harman]

Now tell us how you know the Bible is the word of God. Is that not just the opinion of fallible men?

Or alternatively... Now tell us how you know the Qur'aan is the word of Allah. Is that not just the opinion of fallible men?

I am no expert on the qur'aan but for 1, it teaches that all non-believers should be killed. Christianity is exclusive also as the only way to heaven but we are not instructed to kill non believers.

 

[Ashles]

Actually, one definition of a species is that, if two animals are able to produce fertile offspring, they are of the same species. Animals of different species can sometimes produce offspring, but the offspring are usually infertile. Do you know what a mule is?

Nick:
Yes, a male donkey and a female horse. Horse and donkey same kind of animal. That seems pretty obvious just by looking at them.

But a mule is infertile so a horse and donkey are actually different animals.

You see Nick, it turns out that classification of different animals is actually more difficult than just looking at them.

If Noah had taken a donkey and a horse on the ark then that would have been the end of both species.

Do you see how you have made a simple mistake in assumnig what animals are of the same 'kind'?

 

[Ashles]

I am no expert on the qur'aan but for 1, it teaches that all non-believers should be killed. Christianity is exclusive also as the only way to heaven but we are not instructed to kill non believers.

Ah you've obviously never heard of the Crusades.

Or buddhism.

 

[Nick Harman]

Now tell us how you know the Bible is the word of God. Is that not just the opinion of fallible men?

1) Wrote by many different authors inspired by God: I cannot believe that men could independently write a book many hundreds of years apart and have it mesh together so well. 2) Prophecy: i.e. things prophesied about Christ hundreds of years before he lived that came true. 3) Error free - I realize this is debated among believers and non-believers, but If it was solely of men there would be unanswerable errors in the text. There is not one supposed error or contradiction that has been brought up that has not been answered.

 

[Nick Harman]

But a mule is infertile so a horse and donkey are actually different animals.

You see Nick, it turns out that classification of different animals is actually more difficult than just looking at them.

If Noah had taken a donkey and a horse on the ark then that would have been the end of both species.

Do you see how you have made a simple mistake in assumnig what animals are of the same 'kind'?

I think another similar "exception" is in rabbits. I have read that rabbits from different regions have become unable to breed. Take a 3rd region of rabbits and the other 2 can mate with them but the 1st 2 can not mate with each other. They are all still the same kind of animal. This case and the mule are the only 2 that I have read about like this. Are you aware of others?

 

[Ashles]

1) Wrote by many different authors inspired by God: I cannot believe that men could independently write a book many hundreds of years apart and have it mesh together so well.

Well firstly it doesn't mesh together all that well. There are many inconsistencies and contradictions in it (see below).
Also it was being pulled together from many legends, myths and stories that had existed for a long time before.
And look at how well greek and Roman Mythology meshes together - that was the product of many different minds and stories.

2) Prophecy: i.e. things prophesied about Christ hundreds of years before he lived that came true.

According to who or what? The bible?
So the bible is a historical document that makes predictions about other things, of which our only record is what is written in... the same book?
Do you not see the problm there? I mean really? You can't see it?

3) Error free - I realize this is debated among believers and non-believers, but If it was solely of men there would be unanswerable errors in the text. There is not one supposed error or contradiction that has been brought up that has not been answered.

Well here is a list of 337 contradictions.

And here are 927 absurdities.

As you might expect to find in a work of man.

But we don't really want to get drawn into a generic debate about the bible. Let's stick to the scientific evidence for and against the flood.
You haven't adequately answered a single query yet.

Do you want to try answering where stone age man fits into the bible story?

 

[LW]

I am no expert on the qur'aan but for 1, it teaches that all non-believers should be killed.

Could you please point out exactly were in Koran does it teach so?

 

[Ashles]

I think another similar "exception" is in rabbits. I have read that rabbits from different regions have become unable to breed. Take a 3rd region of rabbits and the other 2 can mate with them but the 1st 2 can not mate with each other. They are all still the same kind of animal. This case and the mule are the only 2 that I have read about like this. Are you aware of others?

What, have I heard of other different species that are unable to breed? Er yes, there are millions of them.

You see creationists often ask for example of evolution in observable action. You have provided such an example - animals of the same species (rabbits) have over time become so genetically different that they cannot breed with each other. Just as we would expect from evolution.
They have become, or are becoming different species. This is speciation.

But then creationists add the absurd argument that this can only happen to a certain extent. So we can have genetically different sdpecies of rabbits, clearly evolving, but they claim there is some form of 'limit' on how different their descendents might become.
This 'limit' is entirely imaginary and invented by creationists.

 

[Nick Harman]

Now you're making stuff up about me, like the good Christian you are. I have given a perfectly accurate account of the AiG material. I wrote: "they deny that it's been published in a peer-reviewed paper!" This was what I had just read on their site, as I mentioned in my post.. Here is a citation and a quotation.

This page from AiG : "It is now claimed, on Thewissen’s web site, that more material has been found. As far as I am aware, none of this extra material has been subjected to peer review. That is, it has not been published in a refereed scientific journal. As such, it is not admissible as scientific evidence."

My account was perfectly accurate.

Your statement implies they deny the whole paper has not been subject to peer review. Did not say you are a liar as I have been called I was only clarifying.

The paper was received by Science journal on 28 October, 1993 and accepted on 3 December, 1993, indicating that the paper passed the refereeing process with no, or only minor, changes being required before publication, and yet the paper is full of highly conjectural material. (here they are acknowledging it's acceptance in a scientific journal). It is the "extra material" they say they are unaware of any publication in a scientific journal.

 

[Nick Harman]

Well, next time you make a totally unsupported assertion, please could you make it clear that you are talking rubbish.Which are not genuine, of course. Look up the references...

Do you have the references, I would like to see.

 

[Mojo]

Do you have the references, I would like to see.

Try here, for a start.

 

[Ashles]

Another short article with pictures.

 

[apoger]

Please note how Nick continues to use the quote function, even though he is clearly using it improperly. This is indicative of his methodology in other areas.

 

[Ossai]

Nick Harman

It is he that sitteth upon the CIRCLE of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:

Ahem, a circle is flat. Go to http://www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/fe-scidi.htm and scroll down about half way for a picture of the flat circle of the earth. Then go here for your next argument.

1 Chronicles 16:30: “He has fixed the earth firm, immovable.”
Psalm 93:1: “Thou hast fixed the earth immovable and firm ...”
Psalm 96:10: “He has fixed the earth firm, immovable ...”
Psalm 104:5: “Thou didst fix the earth on its foundation so that it never can be shaken.”
Isaiah 45:18: “...who made the earth and fashioned it, and himself fixed it fast...”

The pi argument has been refuted as well.

Where and when? Certainly not by you in this thread.

If it is as I say, the mountains raised up after the flood, then you are wrong, there is enough water in the oceans.

It’s not. You apparently don’t read your bible. Mountains were mentioned BEFORE the flood as well as being used as a measuring device of the flood.

Gen: 7:19-20
And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and all the high hills, that were under the whole heaven, were covered
Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail; and the mountains were covered.

Where did the water come from?

Where did the water go?

I was making a statement that I was making an assumption (to clarify). The only thing I am aware of are fossil foot prints together.

For a full rebuttal read http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/paluxy/onheel.html]On the Heels of Dinosaurs[/url].

I am no expert on the qur'aan but for 1, it teaches that all non-believers should be killed. Christianity is exclusive also as the only way to heaven but we are not instructed to kill non believers.

Apparently you haven’t read the bible.
Dt.13:6 "If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers; Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth; Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him: But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die."

2 Chr.15:13 "Whosoever would not seek the LORD God of Israel should be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman."

Mk.16:16 "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned."

1) Wrote by many different authors inspired by God: I cannot believe that men could independently write a book many hundreds of years apart and have it mesh together so well.

Oh, that would explain the hundreds of internal contradictions.

2) Prophecy: i.e. things prophesied about Christ hundreds of years before he lived that came true.

Well considering that Jesus didn’t fulfill a single messianic prophecy, and that the prophecies supposedly fulfilled really are not prophecies if you bother to read them in context I’d say you’ve lost out on this one as well.

3) Error free - I realize this is debated among believers and non-believers, but If it was solely of men there would be unanswerable errors in the text. There is not one supposed error or contradiction that has been brought up that has not been answered.

Bats aren’t birds.
The moon doesn’t give light, it reflects light from the sun.
Mustard seeds are not the smallest seeds and mustard plants are not trees.
How many more do you want?

Ossai

 

[Ashles]

Ossai's link about dinosaur tracks doesn't work - here is the link to On the heels of dinosaurs

 

[H3LL]

Nick, you have shown that:

You don't seem to read and understand this thread.

You don't seem to read and understand the posts.

You don't seem to read and understand links you are given.

You don't seem to read and understand links you give us.

You don't seem to read and understand web sites with your world view.

You don't seem to read and understand web sites with the observed world view.

You don't seem to read and understand science.

You don't seem to read and understand evolution.

You don't seem to read and understand any religion that isn't yours.

You don't seem to read and understand your own religion.

and the clincher.....

You don't seem to read and understand the bible.



How about you start over and try and get one of the above right.

We can move on from there.

 

[Darat]

1) Wrote by many different authors inspired by God: I cannot believe that men could independently write a book many hundreds of years apart and have it mesh together so well. 2) Prophecy: i.e. things prophesied about Christ hundreds of years before he lived that came true. 3) Error free - I realize this is debated among believers and non-believers, but If it was solely of men there would be unanswerable errors in the text. There is not one supposed error or contradiction that has been brought up that has not been answered.

Hi Nick, with your knowledge of the Bible could you tell me which Biblical passages tell you that the Earth is less then 10,000 years old and which Biblical passages tell you (within that time span) when the flood actually happened?

 

[Ashles]

Hi Nick, with your knowledge of the Bible could you tell me which Biblical passages tell you that the Earth is less then 10,000 years old and which Biblical passages tell you (within that time span) when the flood actually happened?

Is that the third or the fourth time you've asked Nick that question?

 

[Darat]

Is that the third or the fourth time you've asked Nick that question?

She/he is being asked a lot of questions and it could just be she/he keeps missing mine. I can be patient so I'm happy to keep asking the same very important question.

In fact I notice there are a couple of other posters who are also patiently repeating their questions to Nick. Hopefully he will find the time to address theirs as well as mine.