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ID/Creationism challenge

ehcks said:
Logos (Christianity)
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In Christology, the conception that the Christ is the Logos (λóγος, the Greek for "word", "discourse" or "reason") has been important in establishing the doctrine of the divinity of Jesus Christ and his position as God the Son in the Trinity as set forth in the Chalcedonian Creed.



Or did everyone else already know that?
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Let's see how that works:

In the beginning was the Word(quantum), and the Word(quantum) was with God, and the Word(quantum) was God.
 
All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
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And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
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Hope that helps.

It helps to realize logos just means "word." A word is a bit of specific information. God creates all things through bits of information but in Christ we see all these bits are actually altogether as The Word (the Logos) and manifested to us in the Person of Christ.

That's why He is the reality. He is the bits making up the universe and exists outside space-time giving rise to physical form (things that are made).
 
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randman said:
The Bible says all things are created through the Logos (the Word) and that the Word upholds all things (sustains their physical existence).
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I'm glad I finally understand your point. You're arguing for Christian creationism over all other possible forms of creationism, and even over science.

Now that I know there's nothing left worth talking about, I'm out. Have fun everybody else.
 
ehcks said:
I'm glad I finally understand your point. You're arguing for Christian creationism over all other possible forms of creationism, and even over science.

Now that I know there's nothing left worth talking about, I'm out. Have fun everybody else.
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You asked for an ID mechanism. I provided and now you complain.

As far as Christian creationism, yes in the sense of creating every moment of the universe from beginning to end at all points in space-time.....yes.

But that's different than, say, young earth creationism, which may or may not be correct in my view.
 
randman said:
You asked for an ID mechanism. I provided and now you complain.

As far as Christian creationism, yes in the sense of creating every moment of the universe from beginning to end at all points in space-time.....yes.

But that's different than, say, young earth creationism, which may or may not be correct in my view.
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The question was for how it works, which you still haven't explained. What can we learn from presupposing that life was created?

I don't argue religion. It's easily the least useful of philosophical drivel.
 
ehcks said:
The question was for how it works, which you still haven't explained. What can we learn from presupposing that life was created?

I don't argue religion. It's easily the least useful of philosophical drivel.
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Already answered....first it works by causing a particle that fundamentally is an information system with the capacity of discrete form to come into physical existence as a discrete form. This is observed unless, for the most part, one wants to posit the Multiverse and even then it seems this is true but physicists say otherwise if they advocate the Multiverse.

So we have an observed mechanism. I like Zeilinger's It from Bit line of thinking and theory to explain the process. It dovetails information theory and explains why particles are quantized.

As far as what we can learn, didn't I already link to you a bunch of ID papers that explains how ID theory is helping research in a more explanatory manner than Neodarwinism?
 
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randman said:
The theory is the Logos is underlying informational order, the means, by which all matter is sustained and formed at all times through information existing outside space-time giving rise to the physical universe as a secondary or derived function.
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Sounds like a dead end for scientific research. If I removed "Logos" from that statement, and simply stated:

"To humans, there often seems to be an underlying informational order, and some means by which all matter is sustained and formed at all times through information existing outside space-time giving rise to the physical universe as a secondary or derived function."​

You end up with the same conclusion (as right or wrong as it is), without asserting an intelligent entity.

In fact, my phrasing implies that the findings could even be a case apophenia ("The experience of seeing meaningful patterns or connections in random or meaningless data." See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apophenia )

How do we know which is the case? How can we demonstrate the existence of Logos, more conclusively?
 
You can call it something else if you want but the same properties will be manifest. Of course, many will refuse to see it as the Logos having the same characteristics. Either way, it's a theory of how information gives rise to discrete physical form from an immaterial state and it is completely testable and observed.
 
randman said:
You can call it something else if you want but the same properties will be manifest. Of course, many will refuse to see it as the Logos having the same characteristics. Either way, it's a theory of how information gives rise to discrete physical form from an immaterial state and it is completely testable and observed.
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How can the existence of Logos be tested, to a degree where we can not dismiss it as a mere case of apophenia?

What specific properties of Logos have been isolated and observed, that are not already part of the conventional framework of quantum physics (which does not include "Logos")?
 
Wowbagger said:
How can the existence of Logos be tested, to a degree where we can not dismiss it as a mere case of apophenia?

What specific properties of Logos have been isolated and observed, that are not already part of the conventional framework of quantum physics (which does not include "Logos")?
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Already answered you and the fact is observed in QM is evidence for it, not against it.
 
a starter for quantum theory....

The Copenhagen Interpretation and the Many-Worlds Theory
The two major interpretations of quantum theory's implications for the nature of reality are the Copenhagen interpretation and the many-worlds theory. Niels Bohr proposed the Copenhagen interpretation of quantum theory, which asserts that a particle is whatever it is measured to be (for example, a wave or a particle), but that it cannot be assumed to have specific properties, or even to exist, until it is measured. In short, Bohr was saying that objective reality does not exist. This translates to a principle called superposition that claims that while we do not know what the state of any object is, it is actually in all possible states simultaneously, as long as we don't look to check.

To illustrate this theory, we can use the famous and somewhat cruel analogy of Schrodinger's Cat. First, we have a living cat and place it in a thick lead box. At this stage, there is no question that the cat is alive. We then throw in a vial of cyanide and seal the box. We do not know if the cat is alive or if it has broken the cyanide capsule and died. Since we do not know, the cat is both dead and alive, according to quantum law - in a superposition of states. It is only when we break open the box and see what condition the cat is that the superposition is lost, and the cat must be either alive or dead.

The second interpretation of quantum theory is the many-worlds (or multiverse theory. It holds that as soon as a potential exists for any object to be in any state, the universe of that object transmutes into a series of parallel universes equal to the number of possible states in which that the object can exist, with each universe containing a unique single possible state of that object. Furthermore, there is a mechanism for interaction between these universes that somehow permits all states to be accessible in some way and for all possible states to be affected in some manner. Stephen Hawking and the late Richard Feynman are among the scientists who have expressed a preference for the many-worlds theory.
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http://searchcio-midmarket.techtarget.com/definition/quantum-theory

This a little crude description which I am sure some like Sol would express a little more technically, but it serves my purposes to show that there are 2 main theories to explain what we in the lab.

By "objective reality", they mean 2 things. First reality is not objective in the sense of it existing in a definite state independent of the questions we ask. Secondly, and this article doesn't really explain this, but reality itself is the informational state they call superposition but that's somewhat of a misnomer. The particles doesn't exist at all in a discrete form is better way to think of it, but as a possibility for numerous states that are in superposition. Depending on what we ask about it will depend on what discrete form it takes.

Also, the principle of entanglement which was around then has now somewhat overshadowed the Uncertainty principle as entanglement explains how that works.

Zeilinger who won an award for teleporting photons has a theory further developed within the Copenhagen line of thought. By teleporting, what he really did was teleport the characteristics to a photon using an entangled photon. The photons were spatially disconnected and as the principle of entanglement predicted, they are joined somehow informationally (and so called non-local) regardless of distance which of course also means regardless of time.

This is what Einstein called spooky action at a distance. The answer of how this works is relatively simple but very profound and that is the particles themselves exist outside space-time informationally and so can act as one system regardless of distance. Only their discrete form which only occurs via "observation" is physical but that's not their fundamental state of existence.

In other words, the universe is fundamentally immaterial.

Well, his idea on why they become only one discrete form if one seeks to find specific information on what path they "took" in space-time is that elementary particles can only give one piece of bit of information. Particles are quantized because information is.
 
Wowbagger said:
QM doesn't need to introduce a "Logos" entity to explain its findings. How come you do?

What, specifically and empirically, are we missing out on, if we don't consider the impact of "Logos" in our studies of QM or biology?
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Call what you want, an informational superposition outside space and time that gives rise to discrete form within space and time.

Same thing.
 
randman said:
Already answered you and the fact is observed in QM is evidence for it, not against it.
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randman said:
Every single point in every single moment.
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There we have it. Your viewpoint is trivial, not specific to any evidence. QM is not evidence for anything other than the states of energy and matter in indivisible energy levels. You wish to interpret it as evidence that your sky buddy exists, it's your right.

I've seen this approach many, many times, randman. An agenda-driven theist (any flavor) will use an esoteric, little-understood area of science to base their claims to the unschooled. The unschooled, being predisposed toward what the huckster is offering, will accept the posit without question.

This happens all the time and not only in relgious circles. The homeopathic, anti-vax, greenie etc movements are full of this stuff. You're no different. And no better. For all your protests, you don't understand science but you want to use it to support your wild ideas. Sorry, doesn't fly. It might make sense to your crowd but you'd be ridiculed at a science forum. You're quickly on your way to crank-dot-net.
 
There we have it. Your viewpoint is trivial, not specific to any evidence
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No, you just have no concept what QM is. Everything physical consists of particles; hence every single point and moment.

QM principles like entanglement are not some esoteric theory. It's basic science, something you should consider sometime.

Now, you could try to invoke the Multiverse, but you cannot pretend this is some sort of poorly understood, esoteric concept, etc,....
 
randman said:
Sure I can and already have. The theory is the Logos is underlying informational order, the means, by which all matter is sustained and formed at all times through information existing outside space-time giving rise to the physical universe as a secondary or derived function.

That's exactly what QM unless one wants to go the Multiverse route, demonstrates. It predicts quantization of particles based on information being quantized as well.

Now if you took the time to learn what the above meant,
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It means you're technobabbling.

randman said:
you might look up papers claiming quantum mechanics control mutation in an adaptive fashion, meaning they are not random but selected for the conditions needed, at least more so, through superposition and processes of quantum mechanics.

This guy (don't know if is he an IDer or not) has written a book called Quantum Evolution and published papers talking about the application of QM to evolution.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johnjoe_McFadden
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Perhaps you should start a thread in which we can discuss the scientific basis of Professor McFadden's ideas.

ehcks said:
Logos (Christianity)
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In Christology, the conception that the Christ is the Logos (λóγος, the Greek for "word", "discourse" or "reason") has been important in establishing the doctrine of the divinity of Jesus Christ and his position as God the Son in the Trinity as set forth in the Chalcedonian Creed.

Or did everyone else already know that?
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That's old news. What's relatively new is conflation of that Christian interpretation of Logos with information theory and with quantum mechanics.

On the other hand, your desire to conflate distinct things is just another example of an ancient fallacy: the universe is confusing, therefore magic.

randman said:
QM principles like entanglement are not some esoteric theory. It's basic science, something you should consider sometime.
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Quantum mechanics is science. Interpretations of quantum mechanics are metaphysics. Interpreting interpretations of quantum mechanics as evidence for magical beings is casuistry.
 
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