I think I've heard every theist argument.

[Azure]

You believe in a supernatural being. Fine. I don't care whether that belief is "spiritual" or "religious". It is still based on nothing.

Sure.

 

[KingMerv00]

Sure.

And your "nothing" is better than your neighbor's "nothing" how?

 

[Jon.]

I was brought up with the belief that there is something greater than ourselves out there.

Does this "something" have any attributes that you know of?

 

[blobru]

I'm trying to remember an incident in the 70's...where someone coerced a lot of people into killing themselves for religious reasons. Anyone remember that?

Jonestown: cult leader Jim Jones. A couple of feds nosing around his commune were shot, then he and 900+ followers [i think] drank cyanide-laced kool-aid.
Waco might be a more recent example, depending on whose account of how the fire started you believe.

Credo consolans. I believe because it consoles me, or makes me feel better, although I know there is no evidence or rational reason to believe in the truth of my beliefs.. There is no real refutation for this, except to say that the person does not really believe, they just act as if they do.

A common refrain akin to the "winning locker room" argument: "First of all, I like to thank God for givin' me strength to beat my opponent to a bloody pulp..."
(refutation: the bloody pulp believed in God too.)

 

[ponderingturtle]

Jonestown: cult leader Jim Jones. A couple of feds nosing around his commune were shot, then he and 900+ followers [i think] drank cyanide-laced kool-aid.
Waco might be a more recent example, depending on whose account of how the fire started you believe.

Actualy it was a congressman named Leo Ryan

 

[blobru]

Actualy it was a congressman named Leo Ryan

Sorry, federal employees. He was shot dead and his aide Jackie Speier was wounded five times.
I wanted to draw the comparison to Waco, which was also a showdown between cult and federal authority.
In hindsight, referring to a man who was gunned down doing his job as one of a "couple of feds" seems flip and callous on my part.
RIP.

 

[Azure]

And your "nothing" is better than your neighbor's "nothing" how?

Did I say it was better?

 

[Azure]

Does this "something" have any attributes that you know of?

A creator...something that holds everything together?

Probably along the lines of the Christian God...but I'm not so fundamental in my approach towards him.

 

[Azure]

Jonestown: cult leader Jim Jones. A couple of feds nosing around his commune were shot, then he and 900+ followers [i think] drank cyanide-laced kool-aid.
Waco might be a more recent example, depending on whose account of how the fire started you believe

The first one is the one I'm referring too.

Obviously their faith didn't help them much.

What happened in Waco?

 

[Jon.]

A creator...something that holds everything together?

Probably along the lines of the Christian God...but I'm not so fundamental in my approach towards him.

Well, that's very ... vague of you.

Do you think that there has to be a "creator"? If so, what created the creator?

Do you think that "everything" needs to be "held together"? Why?

What does "along the lines of the Christian God" mean? Omnipotent? Omniscient? All-loving? Three-in-one? Male?

Does this entity impact on the universe, and more particularly on the Earth, and even more particularly on humanity, today? Did it ever?

 

[Azure]

Well, that's very ... vague of you.

Do you think that there has to be a "creator"? If so, what created the creator?

The whole essence of a creator is that he was the beginning.

Where do you think everything came from? The original source?

Do you think that "everything" needs to be "held together"? Why?

Yes.

What does "along the lines of the Christian God" mean? Omnipotent? Omniscient? All-loving? Three-in-one? Male?

Along those lines yes. Male? I never realized that gender was a defining qualification of God.

Does this entity impact on the universe, and more particularly on the Earth, and even more particularly on humanity, today? Did it ever?

Yes. Obviously as a creator it would impact everything it created.

 

[blobru]

What happened in Waco?

That was David Koresh in the early '90s. When officers tried to search his Branch Davidian compound for a weapons cache, shooting broke out and several were killed. After a prolonged siege and negotiations in which some cult members were allowed to surrender, the compound was stormed with armored tanks. A fire started (some investigators say deliberately by cult members committing suicide, some say by the tanks)... in any event, 75 people inside, including Koresh, perished in the blaze.

 

[Seismosaurus]

I have faith that my belief in God is correct.

May I ask why?

 

[Jon.]

The whole essence of a creator is that he was the beginning.

Where do you think everything came from? The original source?

I don't know. I don't understand the physics around the Big Bang. However, I do understand that declaring a god to be the "beginning" only pushes the question back a step: what created the creator? If the creator didn't need a creator, then why does the universe?

Yes.

You didn't explain why you think everything needs to be held together.

Along those lines yes. Male? I never realized that gender was a defining qualification of God.

Every Bible I've seen refers to the Christian God as "He" and "Father".

And if you think that God is all-knowing, all-powerful and all-loving, you will need to deal with the problem of evil.

Yes. Obviously as a creator it would impact everything it created.

Would you not expect there to be some evidence of this impact?

 

[Azure]

That was David Koresh in the early '90s. When officers tried to search his Branch Davidian compound for a weapons cache, shooting broke out and several were killed. After a prolonged siege and negotiations in which some cult members were allowed to surrender, the compound was stormed with armored tanks. A fire started (some investigators say deliberately by cult members committing suicide, some say by the tanks)... in any event, 75 people inside, including Koresh, perished in the blaze.

Thank you!

I remember reading something about that.

Wasn't there a movie made about such a following?

 

[Azure]

May I ask why?

Because I'm pre-programmed to believe in God?

How the heck should I explain 'why' I believe in God?

 

[Azure]

I don't know. I don't understand the physics around the Big Bang. However, I do understand that declaring a god to be the "beginning" only pushes the question back a step: what created the creator? If the creator didn't need a creator, then why does the universe?

Aha.

You've now officially stumped me.

But I do believe that a Big-bang is a very possible explanation for the birth of the universe. That does not mean that there wasn't a supernatural being that created it.

Yes, what created the creator? Nobody seems to know that answer.

You didn't explain why you think everything needs to be held together.

Okay, I mis-worded my original answer.

I believe that a supernatural being, God, created the universe is such a way that it could evolve by itself. So, your 'why' question should not be directed towards that, but towards my belief of a supernatural being having actually 'created' the universe.

To answer that....I sincerely believe that there had to be a controlling aspect to the creation, simply because of the chances a perfect planet could be created.

Does that mean there are no other perfect planets? No. But those perfect planets must have had perfect circumstances surrounding their creation as well.

Every Bible I've seen refers to the Christian God as "He" and "Father".

And which God have you heard of that isn't referred to as that? Can God have a gender? Perhaps father is a not to be taken as a literal term....rather as a 'father' of the universe.

And if you think that God is all-knowing, all-powerful and all-loving, you will need to deal with the problem of evil.

Yes I know that. Still working on it.

Would you not expect there to be some evidence of this impact?

No. Evidence would cite proof...which would nullify faith.

 

[Seismosaurus]

Because I'm pre-programmed to believe in God?

How the heck should I explain 'why' I believe in God?

Well how you explain is up to you isn't it? As for whether you can or not... well if not you then who?

 

[Azure]

Well how you explain is up to you isn't it? As for whether you can or not... well if not you then who?

Alright...I'll basically give the same answer I gave in another post.

I believe that a supernatural being, God, created the universe is such a way that it could evolve by itself. So, your 'why' question should not be directed towards that, but towards my belief of a supernatural being having actually 'created' the universe.

To answer that....I sincerely believe that there had to be a controlling aspect to the creation, simply because of the chances a perfect planet could be created.

Does that mean there are no other perfect planets? No. But those perfect planets must have had perfect circumstances surrounding their creation as well.

 

[Jon.]

Aha.

You've now officially stumped me.

But I do believe that a Big-bang is a very possible explanation for the birth of the universe. That does not mean that there wasn't a supernatural being that created it.

It doesn't mean there was, either.

Yes, what created the creator? Nobody seems to know that answer.

So, if you're willing to stop there, why are you not willing to stop one question earlier and say you don't know what caused the Big Bang?

Okay, I mis-worded my original answer.

I believe that a supernatural being, God, created the universe is such a way that it could evolve by itself. So, your 'why' question should not be directed towards that, but towards my belief of a supernatural being having actually 'created' the universe.

To answer that....I sincerely believe that there had to be a controlling aspect to the creation, simply because of the chances a perfect planet could be created.

Does that mean there are no other perfect planets? No. But those perfect planets must have had perfect circumstances surrounding their creation as well.

The anthropic principle. Have you ever considered that you're throwing a dart at a big wall, then drawing the target around the dart and declaring that you have scored a bulls-eye? The universe is an awfully big place. The odds were very very good that some planet(s) would be "perfect" so as to give rise to life. Earth was (the) one, so we are here to ask the question. If some other planet had been "perfect" we would have been there asking the same question.

And if this being is so powerful, and can create any universe it wishes, doesn't it seem awfully wasteful to create such a vast one just to give rise to us?

And which God have you heard of that isn't referred to as that? Can God have a gender? Perhaps father is a not to be taken as a literal term....rather as a 'father' of the universe.

There are plenty of gods that have been female, although those have been within pantheons that also included male gods. I just wonder why you adopt so many of the attributes of the Christian god but balk at this one.

Yes I know that. Still working on it.

Good luck with that.

No. Evidence would cite proof...which would nullify faith.

Watch out for those zebra crossings!

Seriously, though, have you considered this? That would imply that God was careful not to leave evidence of his/her/its existence, just so that we could believe by faith. What kind of twisted logic is that? The same kind that makes gardens with one forbidden fruit tree, I guess.