"I know my country does bad things" Grammartron

[a_unique_person]

Many moons ago, I praised the space program, and American music, and the internet, and the micro-processor. I am not going to praise Elvis.

But I was after foreign affairs from you. Blue monk has come up with a fair sort of list. It is not people like Mr Monk who worry me so much, they know when something stinks, and won't put up with it. It's the people like you and Rikzilla who worry me. America can do no wrong, I thought, but then you conceded America has screwed up. I was just wondering what you had in mind when you said this. Don't worry, I won't put it in my sig.

 

[Grammatron]

Many moons ago, I praised the space program, and American music, and the internet, and the micro-processor. I am not going to praise Elvis.

But I was after foreign affairs from you. Blue monk has come up with a fair sort of list. It is not people like Mr Monk who worry me so much, they know when something stinks, and won't put up with it. It's the people like you and Rikzilla who worry me. America can do no wrong, I thought, but then you conceded America has screwed up. I was just wondering what you had in mind when you said this. Don't worry, I won't put it in my sig.

I suggest you rethink that. War on drugs has caused problems in many countries both economically and politically. Just look what it did to Columbia and Mexico.

 

[Grammatron]

Many moons ago, I praised the space program, and American music, and the internet, and the micro-processor. I am not going to praise Elvis.

But I was after foreign affairs from you. Blue monk has come up with a fair sort of list. It is not people like Mr Monk who worry me so much, they know when something stinks, and won't put up with it. It's the people like you and Rikzilla who worry me. America can do no wrong, I thought, but then you conceded America has screwed up. I was just wondering what you had in mind when you said this. Don't worry, I won't put it in my sig.

Also, I never stated American can do no wrong. And Blue Monk has some good points as well, just because I didn't list them doesn't mean I don't agree with them. I could also add the support of the Shah of Iran to that list if it makes you feel so much better.

You always post from the prospective that USA is guilty and it has to prove itself to be innocent. I always post that it's innocent and I would need to see some prove that it's guilty.

 

[RandFan]

Don't worry, I won't put it in my sig.

It would seem rather crass to do so. If I had said it I would have wanted you to have put it in.

It's the people like you and Rikzilla who worry me. America can do no wrong, I thought, but then you conceded America has screwed up.

Sounds a bit like poisoning the well.

Worried? Yes, America is full of jingoistic fanatics that are going to upset the balance of peace in the world. Worried? I'm so sick of this cant. America has been around for more than 2 centuries and we have been a source of good and bad in the world. I would argue that we have been a much greater source of good. Regardless there is no evidence that patriotism from the United States is any more of a threat than the sycophantic worship of socialism from any other part of the world.

 

[Blue Monk]

I’m always most inspired when I see interviews with immigrants who have just passed their citizenship test, grinning ear to ear, waving the flag and saying things like, “I am an American” or “God Bless America.” That says a lot.

This is one country that you’ll never have to build a fence around to keep people in.

But I, like most of you, love this country and want to keep it on track by speaking up against things I disagree with, which historically has proven to have been the single strongest catalyst for change for the better. So many of the better things in this country have sprung directly from the people, things I doubt would ever have occurred had everyone been complacent and waited for the government to deliver it.

It’s unfortunate that when one expresses concern over what they perceive as a misstep in policy that some will jump to charge that they are ‘tearing down America.’ Nothing could be farther from the truth. The American tradition of challenging even the highest authority has been our greatest protection from the few who would seek power for their own petty self-interest.

My family came to this country in 1749 and since it’s birth this Nation has prevailed through many tough times without abandoning it’s dedication to personal liberties but I fear, with the Patriot Act, that this may be the first generation, that when faced with a threat, rolls over and has the first instinct to erode personal liberties, they very same liberties so many of our ancestors spilled blood to protect.

But I do have faith that the system will prevail and this overreaction will be corrected.

In a Democracy where sovereignty resides in the people it’s greatness will always be measured by the conscience of the populace provided they have the courage to rule and not be ruled.

 

[RandFan]

I have always and consistently supported free speech and particularly the rights of those who dissent. Furthermore I strongly support the rights of people from around the world to voice their opposition to American policies. Their views are to me relevant being that America is the world's sole military and economic superpower, our policies have far reaching international implications.

That being said, the answer to bad speech is more speech. Speaking against American policies does not make one right. I also enjoy free speech and when I hear from those who regularly and often maliciously attack the positions that I think are correct I will respond. It is my right. I will not seek to silence those with whom I disagree with, but I will respond loudly when I believe someone is unfairly maligning the current administration and its policies.

I don't expect people to agree with me. I do hope that people will be objective. I hope that people can be respectful and civil. Sadly, there are those on both the left and right who participate in this forum who's lack of objectivity is evident. Ideologues and partisans, who's only purpose in life is to boost their ego by belittling others.

There are those who only come to criticize and tear down. That is fine. This is a political forum. I accept that reality. But know this. Some of us are not going to sit back and shut up because it might hurt some ones feelings. People in glass houses should not throw rocks. As I understand the policies of this forum, all views are welcome here. That includes the dissenters and those who would rebut the dissenters. To those who have little good to say expect your positions to be challenged.

Please don't get me wrong. Complaining about the state of affairs be it political or economic is a human tradition and one that is honored in this country. I love political humor, particularly when it is goring my own ox. But I despise thinly veiled hate disguised as humor.

Correct decisions by world leaders are often in the minority. Churchill was roundly criticized about his views of Hitler before the German leader Marched into the Sudateland. I can't help but wonder if there had been no Chamberlain. If Churchill could have acted before before the atrocities and the extent that war was going to take were known, and saved the lives of millions of innocent Jews, Gypsies and soldiers from around the world if he would have gone down in history as one who had overreached.

I do not at all believe that George Bush overreached. I respect those who do. I hope those who disagree can find it within them to respect me?

Anyway, that is my rant on speech and the state of affairs on this forum.

RandFan

 

[RandFan]

We are not enemies, but friends. We must not be enemies. Though passion may have strained it must no break our bonds of affection. The mystic chords of memory, stretching from every battlefield, and patriot grave, to every living heart and hearthstone, all over this broad land, will yet swell the chorus of the Union, when again touched, as surely they will be, by the better angels of our nature.

--Abraham Lincoln

 

[Blue Monk]

Well it was an excellent rant that I agree with on every point.

I only need to look at my own track record to know that speaking against policies doesn’t make one right, hehe. Yes I know you’re shocked but I have been wrong before.

The left and right extremism I see here and in everyday life reminds me of the polarization of society during the Vietnam war. It got so if a person took a stand to either the left or right they seemed compelled or somehow obligated to accept all the lunatic fringe aspects along with the valid positions resulting in hard-hats beating up peaceful protestors and hippies spitting on returning soldiers. Meathead logic all around.

You get a similar response if you try and discuss the Mid-East. If you express any criticism of Israel then suddenly you’re supporting suicide-bombing and if you say anything critical of the Palestinians then you are suddenly a Zionist puppet. It can be terribly unproductive for those who are truly trying to make sense of a horribly complex problem.

Personally I prefer to hear a well reasoned response from an opposing view. I am less likely to learn anything new or gain new insight from someone who merely parrots my position.

One of the best features of Freedom of Speech is that bad ideas and faulty logic do not fare as well in the bright light. Far more effective that shouting down opposing views is offering reasoned alternatives.

But alas, I too grow weary of those who dispense ideology like a vending machine. Drop in a quarter and you know what you’re going to get. Life is not black or white. Most of us have a leaning but once I learn someone has a universal all-purpose stance I find it difficult to believe they give any issue much thought.

And you’re certainly right concerning Churchill He was a great student of history and rarely has anyone demonstrated such a grasp of the peril before them You can’t fault his understanding and you certainly can’t fault his powers of persuasion and there is little doubt in my mind that millions would have been spared had his warnings been heeded.

But, unfortunately, the man that in retrospect seems capable of overcoming any obstacle couldn’t overcome the common man’s reluctance to face unpleasant political realities.

The truly sad thing is I’m afraid that the lesson has already been forgotten. People want to believe that all war can be avoided but WWII shows the danger of not facing reality. It is ironic that anyone at the time who supported Churchill would have been perceived as a hawk but there is little doubt in hindsight that that stance would have been the most compassionate of all.

I saw this same phenomenon prior to the recent Iraqi war and I’m sure you did too. This is not to say I didn’t speak with people with well-informed opinions both for and against but I also spoke with a large block of people that were going to oppose the war simply because it was war. It was clear the specifics did not concern them. It was war and they were going to oppose it. Period.

I fear that if we ever find ourselves in a similar situation history would repeat itself.

Personally I think the International community pulled a Chamberlain when Saddam was gassing the Kurds.

 

[a_unique_person]

Slightly OT, but Churchill got plenty wrong in his own time. He was right about Hitler, but I doubt that anything could have stopped him. Don't forget that all western countries were just emerging from the worst economic depression in history. None were in shape to splurge large amounts of money on an arms race.

As to the rest, I think it is the ability to be self critical and judge issues on their own merits that is most important, not being left or right. That is, the ability to see when something is not working, and act on that basis.

That is why I was so interested in Grammatrons statement. Many on the left or right will admit no error on their part, and Grammatron seems to be able to do a good job on behalf of the current US administration as an apologist. Yet here he was saying that the US had done bad things.

And I do agree on the 'drug war'. I was not sure if he was referring to the domestic issue only, or it's global impact. The war on drugs is creating more misery than it solves.

 

[Mike B.]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: "I know my country does bad things" Grammartron

What's a cynical geologist?

"Our client's waiting on that survey! Haven't you completed it yet?"
"Oh, just tell 'em it's all mica and shale. It's not like they can tell the difference anyway."

 

[Grammatron]

Slightly OT, but Churchill got plenty wrong in his own time. He was right about Hitler, but I doubt that anything could have stopped him. Don't forget that all western countries were just emerging from the worst economic depression in history. None were in shape to splurge large amounts of money on an arms race.

As to the rest, I think it is the ability to be self critical and judge issues on their own merits that is most important, not being left or right. That is, the ability to see when something is not working, and act on that basis.

That is why I was so interested in Grammatrons statement. Many on the left or right will admit no error on their part, and Grammatron seems to be able to do a good job on behalf of the current US administration as an apologist. Yet here he was saying that the US had done bad things.

And I do agree on the 'drug war'. I was not sure if he was referring to the domestic issue only, or it's global impact. The war on drugs is creating more misery than it solves.

This is where you go wrong. I am not in any way, shape or form an "apologist" for current administration. In fact, I do not really like the people involved. Some of the policies I do not agree with at all, such as the way the prosecute people who sell bongs which is a complete waste of taxpayers' money. Not to mention how they spend as if the country was socialist. Their international diplomacy could use quite a bit more finesse as they execute it in a very inexperienced way.

None of that make the current administration a bad one in comparison with the ones in the past. And no candidate running whom is likely to win has proposed any better realistic solutions to the problems facing this nation.

 

[rikzilla]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: "I know my country does bad things" Grammartron

What's a cynical geologist?

"Our client's waiting on that survey! Haven't you completed it yet?"
"Oh, just tell 'em it's all mica and shale. It's not like they can tell the difference anyway."

In my absense I like what you guys did with it!

I like BM's answer best though.




My mom always used to call my mother-in-law a "geologist"... you know,... a person who searches for faults, and then examines them closely once uncovered.

-z

 

[c0rbin]

I thought you meant "mining for cynical views."

The word "fault never crossed my mind. I like it.

PS,

Nice discourse, RanFan and Blue Monk

 

[a_unique_person]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: "I know my country does bad things" Grammartron

In my absense I like what you guys did with it!

I like BM's answer best though.




My mom always used to call my mother-in-law a "geologist"... you know,... a person who searches for faults, and then examines them closely once uncovered.

-z

I wouldn't call the effects on people around the world of it's drug policy something that can only be found by being a pedantic, nit picking trouble maker.

You have no regard for anyone but yourself and your country. Any pain or suffering anyone else is subject to is ignored, apparently.