I just have to laugh,

[BenBurch]

A20;

Has the proximity of railways to this event entered into your analysis? I ask because I have seen thermite welds being done many times on railways, indeed, that is what it was invented for. And never have I seen a weld done that did not emit showers of sparks.

-Ben

 

[Apollo20]

BenBurch:

Yes, I have data on thermite welding of railway tracks (in general) and the process does indeed produce microspheres, especially microspheres of Al2O3. There are also some interesting data produced by Steven Chillrud in 2004 -05 at the Lamont-Doherty Earth Observatory concerning steel dust in the New York City Subway system from rail wear, braking systems and sparking of electrical contacts

 

[Crazy Chainsaw]

You're right, there are other possible sources for the iron-rich microspheres - but that doesn't make them useless.

If an eyewitness places a suspect at the scene of a crime just before the crime was committed, does that mean that the suspect is definitely guilty? No, not exactly, because it could be a coincidence. Even so, that sighting is still an important piece of evidence, because it can gain significance later on when it's combined with other evidence.

I appreciate all of your alternative theories, but unless you can prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the iron-rich microspheres came from one of your alternatives, I'm afraid that you haven't "debunked" anything.

IT was never about debunking for me, it was actually about the truth, and without exploring all aspects and all alternatives the truth is lost!

You do know that dirt on steel sealed bearing, with aluminum seals can cause friction and the formation of micro spheres from sealed bearings, do you not?

Since I stopped concentrating solely on the buildings and the fires I have found hundreds of possible sources of micro spheres, the diesel generators in the fuel injection pumps are a good source, as are alternators, any moving part moving fast enough to produce friction capable of melting steel on the macro scale.

Lets not even get into damaged Diesel generators turning before the collapse of 7 with no one to shut them off!

 

[Crazy Chainsaw]

BenBurch:

Yes, I have data on thermite welding of railway tracks (in general) and the process does indeed produce microspheres, especially microspheres of Al2O3. There are also some interesting data produced by Steven Chillrud in 2004 -05 at the Lamont-Doherty Earth Observatory concerning steel dust in the New York City Subway system from rail wear, braking systems and sparking of electrical contacts

The whole world runs on bearings Apollo20,

hope you like this article.

http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/19790023434_1979023434.pdf

 

[BenBurch]

CC;

Ships. Lots of ship traffic RIGHT there. Another possible source?

-Ben

 

[BenBurch]

The whole world runs on bearings Apollo20,

hope you like this article.

http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/19790023434_1979023434.pdf

From that article;

Essentially four types of wear debris were observed during this study. These types were normal rubbing wear particles, spherical particles, nonferrous particles, and severe fragments. Fatigue microspall particles and laminar particles sometimes reported during fatigue tests (ref. 10) were not observed in this study.

 

[Alferd_Packer]

The towers used lightweight cement.

One of the more many ways of making lightweight cement is to add fly ash.

Fly ash is loaded with microspheres.

 

[jaydeehess]

You're right, there are other possible sources for the iron-rich microspheres - but that doesn't make them useless.

If an eyewitness places a suspect at the scene of a crime just before the crime was committed, does that mean that the suspect is definitely guilty? No, not exactly, because it could be a coincidence. Even so, that sighting is still an important piece of evidence, because it can gain significance later on when it's combined with other evidence.

I appreciate all of your alternative theories, but unless you can prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the iron-rich microspheres came from one of your alternatives, I'm afraid that you haven't "debunked" anything.

The analogy is flawed. If an eyewitness places a suspect at the scene just prior to a crime being committed AND multiple witnesses say that the 'suspect' is at that spot every day at that time it bolsters the idea that his presence is coincidence.

Your last statement is backwards. If Jones wishes to have his data mean anything at all it is UP TO HIM to take into account all sources of such microspheres and determine if their quantity, size and constituents are in any way unusual given the enviroment of NYC prior to 9/11, and the mechanisms of their production by mechanical means during the collapses.

That is how a scientific examination is supposed to be conducted. So far Jones has done an amateurish job of it. Is he lazy or incompetant, you choose

 

[BenBurch]

The towers used lightweight cement.

One of the more many ways of making lightweight cement is to add fly ash.

Fly ash is loaded with microspheres.

A20 says that they used a processed clay for that, not sure of his source. But in any case the OTHER buildings around there had plenty of concrete and likely some of that was bearing fly ash, and parts of all of them joined the cloud.

 

[Crazy Chainsaw]

A20 says that they used a processed clay for that, not sure of his source. But in any case the OTHER buildings around there had plenty of concrete and likely some of that was bearing fly ash, and parts of all of them joined the cloud.

Fly ash like particles would have been created in the fires themselves from the chemistry of the fires, themselves.

Every car in New York is a potential source of micro spheres every truck, every bicycle is as well, anything that rotates fast enough to melt the steel and aluminum with silicon though friction forming micro spheres on the micro level.
There is not one source there are millions of independent sources of micro spheres the reason they are in the air data is the energy expand in the collapses, and clean up efforts makes them air born.

 

[Foolmewunz]

So, from a non-scientist's point of view, then....?

It's likely that any dust collected in NYC at any time would have some form of microspheres, and he needs to prove that it was the specific microspheres from thermite/thermate.... and in addition, that they could not have been produced by welders working on the IRT, IND, and BMT Lines which all converged under the towers, and which were constantly being repaired for roughly thirty years.

Short of that, the mere fact that he has some nearby dust (this was the samples off the windowsill of the nearby loft, wasn't it?) with microspheres is like finding a water source with bacteria in it. It might impress or worry a fourth grader, but anyone knowing even the tiniest bit of science would not be amazed that there were microbes and such in so-called "fresh" water.

 

[DC]

and those microspheres that are claimed to be from the cleanup work did how exactly get into the apartment?

 

[BenBurch]

and those microspheres that are claimed to be from the cleanup work did how exactly get into the apartment?

We don't know that they did! We don't know that the sample really came from where it was claimed, or that it was not subsequently contaminated or substituted. We don't know how any of that material got there even if the sample was collected properly and transmitted cleanly. And we don't know when they were produced - On 9/11/01, before 9/11/01 or after 9/11/01.

And that is my whole point!

Unless you can tie them to the event and to the building, they are enough like what you find all over NYC on any given day that they are valueless.

 

[Foolmewunz]

and those microspheres that are claimed to be from the cleanup work did how exactly get into the apartment?

And who is it who CLAIMS they are from the cleanup work?
Was that Ben Burch?
Was that Dr. Greening (Apollo 20)?
Was that T.A.M.?
Was that Crazy Chainsaw (hey, glad to see you're back, Crazy! Sorry you had to out and work, though... bummer! I'm trying to break that habit, myself)

Well, no... it was the Stormin' Mormon.... So why don't you trot on over to Scholars and ask the peer-reviewed professor where he got that evidence and why he thinks it should be of any value considering the impossibly weak chain of custody and the totally missing analyses?

 

[leftysergeant]

Glad to know you have not dismembered yourself, CC. I worry about you sometimes. I was about to send a search party to do a health and welfare visit.

Just the fact that some of the samples contain silicone indicates to me that they are not thermite residue. I know of no thermite recipe that calls for kiesselgur. I also notice little calcium in any of the tests. That rules out the only form of thermite I know of that will cut standing columns.

That makes grinders, sanders and vehicle brakes the most logical source of the spheres.

BTW, I have not been able to examine any spectral analysis of Jones' paint chips in a readable format. (If it is on a PDF, I will still have trouble because of some sort of glitch in my computer.)

Jones also makes a big deal about there being a lot of manganese and very little if any chromium in his samples. Seems to me there is manganese in structural steel, but I don't know about chromium. Any help, anybody? Should there be chromium?

 

[Crazy Chainsaw]

Add 2 Cycle engines, lawn mowers, weed eaters anything with aluminum push rods and steel crank shafts to the list of micro sphere producers. During the break in cycle, and during rundown right before the engine blows they produce micro spheres from friction of the crank shaft against the piston rod.
Those spheres are thrown out the 2 cycles exhaust system.

 

[Horatius]

I am also working on a patentable device that will do what the truthers claim was done on 9/11/2001, however I want to use it for good not evil.

I am working on it as a way to save lives, not take them, a rapid rescue and work saving device.

Glad to hear something useful might come out of all this 9/11 stuff, even if it's in a way that no twoofer would have expected!

Please keep us posted on how this proceeds!

 

[gumboot]

So basically just about everything in NYC produces microspheres, and the Professor is an idiot?

 

[Brainster]

Nice job, CC! Happy to link!

 

[Spud1k]

So, to recap, the situation with thermite is currently:

1: Jones has yet to prove thermite was used
2: Thermite is never used in controlled demolitions
3: No-one has come up with a sensible way of using thermite to achieve a demolition like what was seen on 9/11

So basically, there is not one piece of evidence to say that it existed anywhere other than Jones' fevered imagination. They may as well be talking about space lasers.