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I have no reference why TSA policies are wrong

WildCat said:
Paying cash, buying a ticket at the last minute, not checking luggage for a long trip, buying a one-way ticket, evasive when asked about their destination, buying a first-class ticket despite having no apparent source of income, etc etc.

Such methods would likely have caught the shoe bomber and the underwear bomber, whereas former methods did not and the new screening methods probably wouldn't either.

The new methods are all about giving the illusion of security without actually achieving security.
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I would agree those would be some good things to look out for for warning signs. I would also say though that the current security measures are not that intrusive to me. Now obviously, in a pat down you should not be groping anyone. It is a quick pat. Females should be doing the patting down of females and males should be doing the patting down of males. I travel quite a bit, and I have never had any problems or felt uncomfortable with airport security.
 
BobTheCoward said:
Which brings me back to the reason I started this thread: why? That page you linked to said, "embarrassingly intimate pat-downs." I don't see it. Because someone cups their hand and places it on your genitals through your clothing in a very clinical manner? How does that bother anyone?

I am not kidding when I say I have no frame of reference. When people debate this subject, there are assumptions being made that I am not aware of. It seems that people, in a short period of time, have developed body and image issues.
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You said first you thought it was strange to be prudish over your nude image when people are naked in public showers everyday. Now you're going further and saying you're being prudish for not wanting to have your genitalia felt by a stranger? Does that happen in public showers? Maybe yours lol.

But seriously, unless it's a doctor or significant other, I personally don't want to to be touched - especially in private areas, I really don't see why that needs explaining.
Yes it does bother me. I'd be very interested to hear form people who have had these intimate pat downs, what their opinions are afterwards - and from having their wives or daughters go through the same procedure.

I also gather that from a regular TSA worker, it's really unpleasant too.

Bring on Nov 24th!

What would you see as unreasonable?
 
BobTheCoward said:
Which brings me back to the reason I started this thread: why? That page you linked to said, "embarrassingly intimate pat-downs." I don't see it. Because someone cups their hand and places it on your genitals through your clothing in a very clinical manner? How does that bother anyone?
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Because it's still a strange person putting their hand on your genitals. The fact that it's done in a very clinical manner doesn't enter into it.

I am not kidding when I say I have no frame of reference. When people debate this subject, there are assumptions being made that I am not aware of. It seems that people, in a short period of time, have developed body and image issues.
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Have you ever considered that these people already have body image issues that are being exacerbated by these screenings?
 
How about the general fatigue with all this sort of thing? We've been playing these games, with ever-increasing levels of complication, for years now. Just keeps getting more involved.
It's not getting better, it's getting worse.

Mind, I don't have any ready solutions. People keep pointing out the Israeli model of intelligence and admitted profiling, but they only have a tiny fraction of the passenger traffic that major carriers do.
 
Quad4_72 said:
I would agree those would be some good things to look out for for warning signs. I would also say though that the current security measures are not that intrusive to me. Now obviously, in a pat down you should not be groping anyone. It is a quick pat. Females should be doing the patting down of females and males should be doing the patting down of males. I travel quite a bit, and I have never had any problems or felt uncomfortable with airport security.
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Being in the army, you're also used to a level of privacy far less than what those of us not in the military are used to. It's not for everyone.
 
Wildy said:
Because it's still a strange person putting their hand on your genitals. The fact that it's done in a very clinical manner doesn't enter into it.
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Indeed, many people are uncomfortable with their doctor touching them. But at least that has tangible benefits, unlike the new TSA screennings.
 
Bikewer said:
People keep pointing out the Israeli model of intelligence and admitted profiling
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Why do you say "admitted" profiling? Do you think that profiling means "looks Muslim" or something?

Such profiling as done by Israelis is really no different than what you do (Bikewer is a cop for those who don't know) when you pull over a motorist and notice he's acting suspiciously.
 
BobTheCoward said:
So, I am seeing a lot of protests and complaints about the new TSA procedures. I really want to enter the debate, but I need to back up and get some basic things explained to me?

Why do people feel this is wrong?
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I guess people just don't like to be groped.

Silly, I know.
 
WildCat said:
Being in the army, you're also used to a level of privacy far less than what those of us not in the military are used to. It's not for everyone.
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Did you have gym in school? Nothing in the new TSA rules strikes me as more invasive or private than having gym at school.
 
BobTheCoward said:
Did you have gym in school? Nothing in the new TSA rules strikes me as more invasive or private than having gym at school.
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Frankly, I dreaded having to shower and change clothes in gym class. And I hated the little speedos they made us wear when swimming in gym class. And no, I didn't have a small penis nor was I fat and didn't have body image issues. I just found it very uncomfortable and dehumanizing.

YMMV
 
Bob Blaylock said:
Yes, absolutely. An absence of probable cause to suspect that the particular individual has criminal intent. That's the criterion set by the Fourth Amendment.
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And that's really all that has to be said about the matter.

Make them adhere to the US Constitution.
 
Quad4_72 said:
I would agree those would be some good things to look out for for warning signs. I would also say though that the current security measures are not that intrusive to me. Now obviously, in a pat down you should not be groping anyone. It is a quick pat. Females should be doing the patting down of females and males should be doing the patting down of males. I travel quite a bit, and I have never had any problems or felt uncomfortable with airport security.
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Has it occurred to you that you should not impose your own standards or lack of on others?

Even if you are right, but then you are not right. The discussion is over some brand new, much more detailed searches and pat downs which are not implemented at all places yet.

So maybe you should listen to what people are saying?
 
Security expert Bruce Schneier has for years been calling the enhanced security at US airports "security theatre". All it does is give people the impression that things are more secure. The truth is the procedures simply won't catch the bombers or the bombs they may attempt to smuggle on to planes.

Among the failings (culled from a recent blog post of Bruce's titled TSA Backscatter X-ray Backlash):
  • They won't stop terrorists from inserting either C4 or bomb-making materials into body cavities.
  • Muslim women wearing hijabs are given exceptions to the pat-downs
  • They don't monitor the back-room employees.
  • They don't have good procedures for checking air cargo
  • Nude images, which are supposed to be unsaveable, are appearing on the internet

The whole of the airport security theatre assumes that if terrorists are to strike the US again, they will do it by hijacking or blowing up a jetliner. But there are lots of other ways to kill a lot of people and spread terror. For example, what's to prevent a terrorist to blowing up a train? Or a subway station? Or a suicide bomber from blowing himself up at a TSA checkpoint in an airport, where conveniently there are lots of potential victims all clustered together?

Bruce's primary criticism is all the attention to "security" at airports diverts resources away from what is really needed to catch and foil these plots in the first place: intelligence gathering and analysis.
 
MG1962 said:
I have to say I find both processes intrusive. However for the life of me I can not think of a better way to do it. When I do thats when I will start complaining
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Why not use dogs? They could smell both bombs and drugs without any scans or groping...and would be orders of magnitude cheaper than multi-million dollar scanners, and probably more effective, as they could detect residue.

Just park a dog next to the metal detector, and you can passively scan everyone quickly...not just a few selected individuals.
 
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The Painter said:
Search everyone.................................but not the Muslims. Hmmmmm. I know I'm just a painter but I don't think that is the right criteria.
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And thus it becomes a joke, a complete farce. Everyone searched -- except those most likely to be bombers, Muslims hiding under their garb.

Fortunately, her viewpoint is not the prevailing one, as they said yesterday there would be no religious exceptions.
 
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