I found the missing Jolt.

NoahFence said:
"Something he says might be leaning"

There's a frickin LINE on WTC 7. That's the "something". And it IS leaning, not "Might".

You have been corrected. You asked for evidence of it leaning. You now are in possession of first-hand witness accounts AND physical evidence in the form of a photograph.

Say thank you and MOVE ON.

The building was leaning. It's been proven beyond a shadow of a doubt.
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I think you have a low standard for proof.
 
NoahFence said:
Yea, documented experts on-site and photographic evidence.

What will you accept?

Keep in mind that concrete and steel, as far as I know, don't have DNA strands.

You won't accept ANYTHING.
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NoahFence, can you corroborate what tfk found with other photographs of WTC 7? The Dan Rather video?
 
MicahJava said:
NoahFence, can you corroborate what tfk found with other photographs of WTC 7? The Dan Rather video?
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Not in any way that would satisfy you, no. The only way I could corroborate it to your satisfaction is to knock you out like they used to do to B.A. on The A-Team, (mmm... hamburgers) bring you to my super secret time machine, take you back to 9/11 and point at the :rule10 building.

Even then I have my doubts.
 
NoahFence said:
Not in any way that would satisfy you, no. The only way I could corroborate it to your satisfaction is to knock you out like they used to do to B.A. on The A-Team, (mmm... hamburgers) bring you to my super secret time machine, take you back to 9/11 and point at the :rule10 building.

Even then I have my doubts.
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I can do my best with what little knowledge I have of photo editing software, but all I'm asking for is some corroboration for the claim that you can see the the west side of WTC 7 leaning at a 2 degree angle.
 
There's a photograph.

IN THIS THREAD.

That proves it.

If 10 were the upper limit of how lazy a person can be, you'd be pushing about 20.
 
MicahJava said:
The firefighter claimed that you can see the building leaning (with the naked eye). Tfk posted a screenshot of something he says might be leaning, but I'm looking at all the other WTC 7 videos and I don't see anything matching his screenshot.
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That's because you see what you want to.

MJ, do you spend much time around high rise buildings?

I do. And if one were leaning, I'd be able to see that with my own eyes.
 
MicahJava said:
Naaaah, I don't want to go emailing Mr. Eagar and have him ignore me. I'm wondering if you're lying. You claim to have personally spoken with the walking, talking holy grail of CD debunking.
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Every truther has a personal holy grail. When it vanishes, they get another until they manage to find one that is relatively well protected from criticism. For example, Heiwa's is that 10% of a building can't crush the remaining 90% of it, and gives a damn about what any engineer said.

"Your" engineer is not a holy grail. You don't seem to even consider the possibility that the engineer was lucky with the time estimation, which is the most plausible explanation. You shoehorn that engineer's declaration as evidence of foreknowledge, because your belief requires you to do so. When looked from the distance, with more perspective, that's just a mostly irrelevant data point, that merely tells us that it was not unexpected that the building would fall, unlike what truthers have been saying all this time.

Indeed, your position tells us more about the truther's SOP than anything else: they claimed that it was a conspiracy because no one expected it because high rises have never collapsed blah blah, and now that it's proven that the collapse was expected, it's a conspiracy because everyone expected it. :rolleyes:


MicahJava said:
Everybody was expecting with 100% certainty a total collapse.
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Hogwash. "100% certainty"? No way.

It had happened twice that day. It was a reasonable expectation. No one was 100% certain.
 
ozeco41 said:
Yes - the choice of topic could be interesting. Also the implicit challenge for both parties to engage in reasoned and valid argument of the technical topic.
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I agree and I will sweeten the pot, if Tony Wins I will make a public apology two him, Cole, and Gage provided it is a fair debate on the technical issues.
 
MicahJava said:
The firefighter claimed that you can see the building leaning (with the naked eye). Tfk posted a screenshot of something he says might be leaning, but I'm looking at all the other WTC 7 videos and I don't see anything matching his screenshot.
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The firefighter claimed that he could see the building leaning. From what vantage point do you think he was seeing it? Were the firefighters high in the air in news helicopters blocks away taking photographs, or were they near the base of the building looking up at it?

It would be much easier to see any leaning, curvature, or other distortion from the operational zones near the base of the building than from landscape photographs, for the same reason it's easier to see the crown (non-straightness) in a two-by-four by sighting along its length.

If you can't see the lean in photographs (even though it's there and has been definitively pointed out), that just doesn't matter. Sorry.

Too bad the firefighters in that area were too busy maintaining a safe zone and searching for their hundreds of (at that time presumed) trapped brothers, instead of taking better pictures. How inconsiderate of them.
 
Myriad said:
The firefighter claimed that he could see the building leaning. From what vantage point do you think he was seeing it? Were the firefighters high in the air in news helicopters blocks away taking photographs, or were they near the base of the building looking up at it?

It would be much easier to see any leaning, curvature, or other distortion from the operational zones near the base of the building than from landscape photographs, for the same reason it's easier to see the crown (non-straightness) in a two-by-four by sighting along its length.

If you can't see the lean in photographs (even though it's there and has been definitively pointed out), that just doesn't matter. Sorry.

Too bad the firefighters in that area were too busy maintaining a safe zone and searching for their hundreds of (at that time presumed) trapped brothers, instead of taking better pictures. How inconsiderate of them.
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No, the firefighter in question either is in-on-it too, or simply never existed.

MJ's odd denial of the effect on WTC7 of the WTC1 impact is a grasping at straws.
 
Myriad said:
The firefighter claimed that he could see the building leaning. From what vantage point do you think he was seeing it? Were the firefighters high in the air in news helicopters blocks away taking photographs, or were they near the base of the building looking up at it?
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Like this?

B0776331-44F3-489E-ACC1-A548B554421E.jpg


That's where I am at the moment. That's One California Street, SF. If that sucker was leaning not only would I know, I sure as **** wouldn't be standing around snapping pics of it.
 
ozeco41 said:
They were possibly anticipating small and localised heat driven collapses blocking stairwells and access paths.

If we forget the polarised dishonesty of truther v debunker arguments the reality is that every professional including fire-fighters was and is well aware of heat effects on steel.

BUT their training and experience probably limited to small scale factory or warehouse fires where sagging roof trusses are routine..

There is no doubt that total global collapse as per Twin Towers 9/11 was unprecedented and near certainly beyond the comprehension of fire-fighters involved.

So your question is prudent "what potential for collapse do you think the fire-fighters who went up in the South Tower believed there was?"

I suggest they would have assessed the potential as "small and localised heat driven collapses - possibly blocking access" I doubt that any would have anticipated total global collapse.
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To clarify, most of the firefighters arrived at the WTC wondering how they were going to fight the blaze so high up. They have a lot of training, and had responded to emergencies in the Towers many times before, but in those cases they had working elevators, and the problems were localized, and to my knowledge there were no fires inside of the towers.

In the cases of WTC 1 & WTC2, even if there was a risk of collapse, there were people trapped above the fire, and rescue is job one. It wasn't until WTC2 came down that the order was given by the FDNY for it's crews to withdraw from WTC1. After the second tower came down the overriding concern was safety for the remaining firefighters, so WTC7 was left to burn.

By the afternoon I'm sure they thought more buildings than 7 would collapse too.

I apologize for explaining the obvious.
 
AJM8125 said:
Like this?

[qimg]http://i1233.photobucket.com/albums/ff387/AJM8125/B0776331-44F3-489E-ACC1-A548B554421E.jpg[/qimg]

That's where I am at the moment. That's One California Street, SF. If that sucker was leaning not only would I know, I sure as **** wouldn't be standing around snapping pics of it.
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The handy thing about buildings is the penchant for the designers to line windows up vertically and horizontally. Gives one a reference for unusual deformations.
 
MicahJava said:
I can do my best with what little knowledge I have of photo editing software, but all I'm asking for is some corroboration for the claim that you can see the the west side of WTC 7 leaning at a 2 degree angle.
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I am assuming your response here is in reference to someone claiming that WTC 7 was leaning 2 degrees on the west side before it collapsed.

2 degrees on a 610 foot tall building has the roof shifted 21 feet away from the base in the vertical. If that actually happened it would be very observable. I have never seen any photos or video showing this.

I also can't imagine a mechanism that could cause it except for a large number of columns failing on that side and that would cause other problems. When is this said to have happened?
 
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