I don't want to die

[Complexity]

I don't want to die. I want to live for ever. I think learning things to lose them is torment. I like to live, but every thinking about death brings my mood down.

Deal with it.

Get some professional help if you need it, but deal with it.

There are those who spend their life worrying about death, or fantasizing about some imaginary life after death.

And there are those who live their one life well.

Your choice.

 

[Eric Portal]

So, in the context of an R&P discussion, what strategies do you suggest we implement in anticipation of a world where early 21st century Pontiacs and Mercurys are still going strong 150 years later?

Human Population Growth
In a world with no tanks, either we stop building new cars or ALL of our roads will be permanently gridlocked

Its understandable, of course, that this would be a concern. Any endeavor, where there is little to no thinking ahead is a gamble that can bring disasterous consequences. We have to think about these things, and if necessary, plan ahead. There are a variety of organizations in this movement that are dedicated directly to anticipating and planning for and investigating things like that.

It reminds me of this list of excerpts here:

Growing Gains - Jacob Sullum | January 5, 2000

"Malthus was also wrong to think that "population...invariably increase where there are means of subsistence." In fact, notes Bailey, "we find that the countries that are the wealthiest and have the greatest access to food--the United States, Germany, Italy, Spain, Japan, France--are precisely those countries that have the lowest birth rates, all of them below replacement levels."

Likewise, the neo-Malthusians are wrong to think that economic growth inevitably leads to environmental degradation. In fact, as Bailey’s book shows with data on air pollution and other indicators, "greater affluence means an improving natural environment, not a worsening one."

It’s true enough, as opponents of growth constantly remind us, that the earth’s resources are finite. But what Malthus missed, and what his ideological heirs fail to appreciate, is the human ingenuity that enables us to arrange those resources in an infinite variety of combinations.

The improvements in agriculture that we have seen in the last century, on a scale beyond anything that Malthus imagined, are just one example of that ingenuity. "The United States uses less than half of the land for farming in the 1990s than it used in the 1920s," Bailey notes, "but it produces far more food now than it did then."

Market incentives constantly drive people to find ways of doing more with less, to devise better "recipes" for the things they need and want. "Two centuries after Malthus," Bailey concludes, "we now know that the exponential growth of knowledge, not of our numbers, is the real key to understanding the promising future that lies ahead for humanity and for the earth.""

Ethical Poverty - Staying poor to save the planet - Ronald Bailey | November 20, 2002

"Economic growth is what has paid for both the technological improvements and the compliance with regulations that have made environmental improvements possible. To consider just how wrongheaded Elliott and Lamm are, think how polluted the United States would be if the economy hadn't grown at all since the 1950s. People would still be using technologically backward cars spewing pollutants. There would be very few municipal sewage treatment plants on rivers, no filters on coal-fired electric plants, few controls on industrial dumping, and no modern landfills. Forests would have been chopped down to accommodate low-productivity farms."

Loving Death "Early death, disease, disability: pro or con?" Ronald Bailey | February 26, 2003

“The cutting edge of medical life-advancing technology could slice through Fukuyama's nursing-home fears by aiming directly at preventing aging, not just ameliorating the diseases such as cancer, Alzheimer's, and heart disease that often accompany it. The point of aging research is not to make us older longer, but to make us younger longer.”

“Finally, Fukuyama ignores that the effort to extend lifespan is a perfect flourishing of a uniquely human nature. The highest expression of human dignity and human nature is to try to overcome the limitations imposed on us by our genes, our evolution, and our environment. Future generations will look back at the beginning of the 21st century with astonishment that some very well meaning and intelligent people actually wanted to stop biomedical research just to protect their cramped and limited vision of human nature. They will look back, I predict, and thank us for making their world of longer, healthier lives possible.”

Tithonus Option/Error - Chris Lawson - November 10 2002. (reprint)

"Anti-ageing technology may present us with the awful scenario of extended lifespan but limited improvement in quality of life. Living forever -- or at least for long periods of time -- with dementia is known as "The Tithonus Option.""

"In Greek mythology, Tithonus was a handsome mortal who fell in love with Eos, the goddess of the dawn. Eos realised that her beloved Tithonus was destined to age and die. She begged Zeus to grant her lover immortal life.

Zeus was a jealous god, prone to acts of deception in order to seduce beautiful gods and mortals, and he was not pleased with Eos's infatuation with a rival. In a classic Devil's Bargain, he granted Eos's wish -- literally. He made Tithonus immortal, but did not grant him eternal youth.

As Tithonus aged, he became increasingly debilitated and demented, eventually driving Eos to distraction with his constant babbling.

In despair, she turned Tithonus into a grasshopper. In Greek mythology, the grasshopper is immortal. (In a close cultural parallel, the Chinese believed that locusts live forever.) This myth also explains why grasshoppers chirrup ceaselessly, like demented old men."
*(The point of the movement for indefinite life extension, however, is to create a robust state of biological affairs, of which indefinitely increasing frailty does not, cannot occur.)

Life Extension and Overpopulation - Max More, Ph.D. 1996, 2001

"1: Let us assume for a moment that population growth is or will become a serious problem. Would this give us a strong reason for turning against the extension of human lifespan? No. Opposing extended life because it might add to existing problems would be an unethical response. Suppose you are a doctor given a child to treat who is suffering from pneumonia. Would you refusing to cure the child because then she would be well enough to run around, fall down, and skin her knees? Our first responsibility is to live long and vitally and to help others do the same. Once we are at work on this primary goal, we can focus more energy on solving other challenges. Life extension and optimal living for the individual certainly benefits from a healthy physical and social environment. The life extensionist may want to be part of the solution to any population issues, but dying is not a responsible or healthy way to solve anything. Besides, if we take seriously the idea of limiting lifespan to control population, why not be more active about it? Why not encourage suicide? Why not execute anyone reaching the age of 75?

2. Limiting population growth by opposing life extension not only fails the ethical test, it also fails the pragmatic test. Keeping the death rate up simply is not an effective way of slowing population growth. [........]

Even the apparent short term upward effect on population due to a lower death rate may be cancelled by a delay in child-bearing. Many women in developed countries (those who will be first to have extended life) choose to bear children by their early ‘30s because their chances go down as they age. Extending the fertile period of women’s lives would allow them to put off having children until later, while they concentrate on their careers. Not only couples have children later, they will be better able to care for them, financially and psychologically."

World Population Implosion? By Nicholas Eberstadt | AEI Online Thursday, October 16, 1997

"Most of the news from the 23rd General Population Conference, held in October in Beijing, focused on the threat of overpopulation. But this danger may be a myth. Over the past several years, some of the world's best demographers have begun a dramatic reassessment of the world's demographic future. They are now seriously considering the possibility that the world's population will peak in our lifetimes, and then commence an indefinite decline."

Is Human Population - Really the Problem? - Views of Jeff Lindsay - circa 2005

"Just what is "overpopulation"? How does one determine when a nation is overpopulated? There are no clear demographic indicators for this fuzzy notion. If population density is used as the criterion, then Bermuda and Monaco would be crisis zones, while Nigeria and Ethiopia should be paradise. Other factors, like population growth rate, also provide metrics riddled with inconsistencies. Yes, there are places where people lack resources and go hungry, but eliminating neighbors is not the solution to the condition of poverty. If we are worried about those who go hungry, let us recognize that the hungry are suffering from poverty, not from overpopulation."

Overpopulation? Not a problem! Michael Anissimov Tuesday, Sep 12 2006

"So it turns out that if 5% of the United States were converted into urban area with a population density of 6,000/km², and 45% were converted into suburban area with a population density of 2,000/km², with the remaining 50% left for rural area, parks, and farms, there would be enough room for 3 billion in the urban areas, and 9 billion in the suburban areas, for a total population of 12 billion. This is in the US alone. This scheme could be extended to the other countries and continents for a total population of around 100 billion. Everything between the Arctic and Antarctic circles are potential targets for colonization. This is about 130,000,000 km² of land area (the circumpolar regions have about 20,000,000 km² of land)."

Overpopulation is not the life extensionists problem, it is the non life extensionists - Eric Schulke – August 23, 2007

"We'll compress the situation so we can analyze it. Instead of 6 billion people being trapped on the planet, we'll talk about it in terms of 600 people being trapped in a warehouse, forever.

Alright, they have babies, they have babies, they have babies, soon, oh crap, theres no more room left.

"Ok Eddy, you and Mike and Don and the bunch are the oldest at 65 now. We need some room. Could you jump into that blender please?"

"Sure we'll jump into that blender. It makes the life we lived more full!" ~jump~

"Thanks guys!" (looking down into blender waving.)

So the oldest have to die? What if the oldest people were 40? What if they were 30? Well, theres no room right? They better die."

Aging In America Jan 03, 2010

"Longevity advances and their effect on population was also the subject of one chapter in The Scientific Conquest of Death. Based on the mathematics of population growth and current demographic trends, author Max More dismisses any serious threat from overpopulation due to life extension, correctly pinning the problem on the birth rate."

Demographic Consequences of Defeating Aging - Leonid Gavrilov and Natalia Gavrilova Ph.D‘s - 2010

(against overpopulation concerns)
Abstract from Pub Med:
“A common objection against starting a large-scale biomedical war on aging is the fear of catastrophic population consequences (overpopulation). This fear is only exacerbated by the fact that no detailed demographic projections for radical life extension scenario have been conducted so far. This study explores different demographic scenarios and population projections, in order to clarify what could be the demographic consequences of a successful biomedical war on aging. A general conclusion of this study is that population changes are surprisingly slow in their response to a dramatic life extension. For example, we applied the cohort-component method of population projections to 2005 Swedish population for several scenarios of life extension and a fertility schedule observed in 2005. Even for very long 100-year projection horizon, with the most radical life extension scenario (assuming no aging at all after age 60), the total population increases by 22% only (from 9.1 to 11.0 million). Moreover, if some members of society reject to use new anti-aging technologies for some religious or any other reasons (inconvenience, non-compliance, fear of side effects, costs, etc.), then the total population size may even decrease over time. Thus, even in the case of the most radical life extension scenario, population growth could be relatively slow and may not necessarily lead to overpopulation. Therefore, the real concerns should be placed not on the threat of catastrophic population consequences (overpopulation), but rather on such potential obstacles to a success of biomedical war on aging, as scientific, organizational, and financial limitations.“

 

[Beerina]

I don't know about forever, or even a paltry 17 trillion years, but I know 72, if you're lucky, is way too damned short.

 

[six7s]

So, in the context of an R&P discussion, what strategies do you suggest we implement in anticipation of a world where early 21st century Pontiacs and Mercurys are still going strong 150 years later?

Human Population Growth
In a world with no tanks, either we stop building new cars or ALL of our roads will be permanently gridlocked

Its understandable, of course, that this would be a concern. Any endeavor, where there is little to no thinking ahead is a gamble that can bring disasterous consequences. We have to think about these things, and if necessary, plan ahead. There are a variety of organizations in this movement that are dedicated directly to anticipating and planning for and investigating things like that.

It reminds me of this list of excerpts here:<snip/>

Some interesting, thought-provoking reading...

However... I asked "what strategies do you suggest we implement...?"

 

[Radrook]

Radrook,
It is a good sign that you cannot fathom boredom with life.
It would be sadistic to explain it to you in a way that took hold.....'

Really?

 

[Eric Portal]

Some interesting, thought-provoking reading...

However... I asked "what strategies do you suggest we implement...?"

There are many conceivable solutions to potential over population, and many conceivable solutions to potential under population.

Because of that, the strategy that I suggest is support places like IEET and LifeBoat.

 

[six7s]

There are many conceivable solutions to potential over population, and many conceivable solutions to potential under population.

Because of that, the strategy that I suggest is support places like IEET and LifeBoat.

Oh...
ieet.org/.../verdoux20100624/

There is nothing wrong with someone not knowing about a given subject. But there is something wrong with someone not knowing about a subject and pontificating about it as if he does.

OK

 

[Eric Portal]

I like that quote, I hadnt seen it before.

or for example:

"PROGRAMS AND ACTIVITIES

Programs

The IEET has adopted four programmatic foci for its work.

Securing the Future - Under our Securing the Future research program we are assembling interdisciplinary teams of natural scientists, social scientists, humanists, historians, engineers, and futurists to work in goal-oriented projects aimed at proactively mitigating existential risks to humanity and to the biosphere.

Rights of the Person - Through the Rights of the Person program we engage the human rights community, legal scholars, reproductive rights activists, the transgendered community, and advocates of public health approaches to illicit drugs in a campaign to deepen and broaden the concept of human rights.

Longer, Better Lives - With the Longer, Better Lives program we seek to make the case for longer healthier lives, addressing objections to life extension, from the alleged problem of overpopulation to the threat of ennui. We are coordinating and developing consultation with senior citizens groups and organizations of the disabled to help them challenge ageist and ableist attitudes that discourage the full utilization of health technology.

Envisioning the Future - Through our Envisioning the Future program we engage with culture critics, artists, writers, filmmakers and consumers to explore the biopolitics implicit in depictions of technology in literature, film and television."


Another quote:

"We must develop innovative problem-solving skills to face the complex world of the future—and to raise standards of living across the world. Now, for the first time in history, the entire world community is able to communicate, across borders and nationalities, to share strategies and seek solutions."

 

[Parasitic]

I don't want to die. I want to live for ever. I think learning things to lose them is torment. I like to live, but every thinking about death brings my mood down.
There is no reason to believe to afterlife, at least that's what I think at a moment. But living without hope for afterlife isn't pleasant thing for me.

For example, I was reading interesting history book, and I liked it, but then I started to think about death and now, I have no more wish to continue reading it, because, if after some 40 years I'll be dead, maybe I better stop learning and just enjoy rest of my days.

At a moment I don't even understand anymore why people who are 50 years old go to work. They will die in next 20 years or so. wouldn't it be better if they would sell everything, go around world doing all things what they wanted and when money runs out....

Maybe I'm overreacting to this no afterlife question. But I lost faith recently and I have problems seeing how can one be calm and die piece fully. I don't want do die. I want to live for ever!

No body wants to die. Get over it.

 

[six7s]

No body wants to die. Get over it.

Really?

Tell that to the people at Exit

Exit International (Assisted Suicide/ Voluntary Euthanasia)

Exit International is a leading End of Life Choices information & advocacy non-profit, founded by Dr Philip Nitschke PhD, MD.

Exit International holds regular Meetings & Workshops in the United States, Australia, Canada, the United Kingdom, Ireland & New Zealand. Exit was previously known as the Voluntary Euthanasia Research Foundation.

Exit International (US) is the publisher of the best-selling, fully-online Peaceful Pill eHandbook.

 

[Schrodinger's Cat]

Such thoughts lead to depression and often even to suicide my friend. I suggest that you take to heart the promises given us by the Holy Bible about everlasting life for those who accept Jesus as their savior. This will give you a hope for the future and dispel all these dark thoughts.


“Come to me, all you who are toiling and loaded down and I will refresh you. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am mild-tempered and lowly in heart, and you will find refreshment for your souls, for my yoke is kindly and my load is light.”—Matthew 11; 28-30


Revelation 21:4
And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away."

#1. If I am to take the Bible literally, that I would take absolutely zero comfort in my eternity resting in the hands of such a violent, petty, vengeful, jealous, incompetent, and woman hating deity. If I were to believe the OT to be true, it would make me a terrified individual, and very bitter at being forced to worship such a horrible God. It would not bring me comfort.

#2. If I were to take the Bible as I did in my childhood...to be largely symbolic rather than literal, but with the main tenants still being true...

Believing in something because you want to doesn't work. All you're doing is wanting to believe in it.

I was raised Catholic. I went to a wonderful, tolerant, loving church with wonderful, tolerant, priests who exemplified the best of what Catholicism has to offer. I liked being Catholic, I wanted to believe in all of it.

But eventually I just couldn't believe something for no other reason than it was written down in a book thousands of years ago...especially after I found out exactly how often that book had been revised and who had done the revisions. I wanted to believe it, but I didn't.

Then I tried Ba'hai. Then Buddhism. Same thing. As appealing as these faiths were to me, as much as I desired to believe in them, I am burdened by that which we call reason, which just won't allow me to believe something that I have no evidence of rather than another person's word that this is the truth.

I still do believe in something more, but I don't pretend to know what that something more is. Buddhism still is what I lean towards just because their writings seem the most based in reality and applicable to every day life, and certainly FAR more moral and comforting than the teachings of the Bible. But just because it seems the most practical, fair, and appealing to me, doesn't make it true. I more focus on the Buddhist teachings that can be applied to my real life now (like following the 8 fold path) just as a philosophical guide, as opposed to their musings on the afterlife, which I have no way of knowing whether or not they are correct. I do find their musings on the afterlife to seem the most fair and sensible...but that doesn't actually make them true. I believe it MIGHT be true...but who knows?

I just like thinking for myself too much. I can't bring myself to let someone else think for me because they have a comforting message, even though I have attempted such intellectually dishonest exercizes in the past.

 

[Schrodinger's Cat]

Such thoughts lead to depression and often even to suicide my friend. I suggest that you take to heart the promises given us by the Holy Bible about everlasting life for those who accept Jesus as their savior. This will give you a hope for the future and dispel all these dark thoughts.


“Come to me, all you who are toiling and loaded down and I will refresh you. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am mild-tempered and lowly in heart, and you will find refreshment for your souls, for my yoke is kindly and my load is light.”—Matthew 11; 28-30


Revelation 21:4
And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away."

#1. If I am to take the Bible literally, that I would take absolutely zero comfort in my eternity resting in the hands of such a violent, petty, vengeful, jealous, incompetent, and woman hating deity.

#2. If I were to take the Bible as I did in my childhood...to be largely symbolic rather than literal, but with the main tenants still being true...

Believing in something because you want to doesn't work. All you're doing is wanting to believe in it.

I was raised Catholic. I went to a wonderful, tolerant, loving church with wonderful, tolerant, priests who exemplified the best of what Catholicism has to offer. I liked being Catholic, I wanted to believe in all of it.

But eventually I just couldn't believe something for no other reason than it was written down in a book thousands of years ago...especially after I found out exactly how often that book had been revised and who had done the revisions. I wanted to believe it, but I didn't.

Then I tried Ba'hai. Then Buddhism. Same thing. As appealing as these faiths were to me, as much as I desired to believe in them, I am burdened by that which we call reason, which just won't allow me to believe something that I have no evidence of other than another person's word that this is the truth, and a "feeling" in my heart that it's true.

I still do believe in something more, but I don't pretend to know what that something more is. Buddhism still is what I lean towards just because their writings seem the most based in reality and applicable to every day life, and certainly FAR more moral and comforting than the teachings of the Bible. But just because it seems the most practical, fair, and appealing to me, doesn't make it true. I more focus on the Buddhist teachings that can be applied to my real life now (like following the 8 fold path) just as a philosophical guide, as opposed to their musings on the afterlife, which I have no way of knowing whether or not they are correct.

I just like thinking for myself too much. I can't bring myself to let someone else think for me because they have a comforting message, even though I have attempted such intellectually dishonest exercizes in the past.

Though I would highly recommend the teachings of Buddhists and Taoists if you are looking for philosophical comfort for the stresses and depression that life can bring. The Bible doesn't hold a candle to them, IMHO. Thích Nhất Hạnh I've found to be an especially wonderful writer. If anything, when I was Catholic, studying the Bible made it worse, because it just comes with so much guilt and condemnation of NATURAL and inescapable feelings to be in fact sinful in nature. Even THINKING about something sinful is sinful! It's not like I can control every thought that enters my brain, but according to Christianity, if I even look at a man other than my husband and think, "mmm mmm, if I wasn't married..." then I have already committed adultery. So pretty much, I cheat on my husband several times a day without even trying. Yeah, sorry, that doesn't make me feel better about life.

Which isn't to say there's nothing worthwhile in the Bible. There's plenty worthwhile in it, same with the Koran, or the works of many a famed philosopher. I just think it's a pretty bad go to book for comfort over the stresses and hardships of life. But hey, if someone else can take comfort in it, than go right ahead. I'm sure there's things that make me feel better about life that would have no impact, or even a negative impact, on another person. I just feel there are a lot better options out there.

Though really, living life to the fullest will probably do a lot more for depression about the inevitability of death than reading some books about it. Volunteer, adopt a kid, paint a self portrait, build a house. Set goals, accomplish them. Working as hard as you can to get the most out of life while you've got it to live is probably the best way to make yourself feel better.

I work in a cancer hospital, I deal with a lot of dying people. And in my experience the thing that brings people the most comfort is NOT what their religious beliefs are, but rather that they have done a lot in life and feel they had a good run while they were here. An accomplished, fulfilled atheist has a far rosier view on death than an unaccomplished, unfulfilled born again Christian (again, in my personal experience only). And even when it comes to patients I know to be very religious, they really don't talk about Heaven so much when they talk about being okay with death, they talk about how they've lived their lives, and how that is what brings them a sense of peace. Which isn't to say their beliefs bring them NO comfort, only that it doesn't seem to be the main thing that comforts them.


Oops I don't know why my edited version came up as a separate double posts? If a mod could delate the previous post that would be great, thanks!

 

[Eric Portal]

#1. If I am to take the Bible literally, that I would take absolutely zero comfort in my eternity resting in the hands of such a violent, petty, vengeful, jealous, incompetent, and woman hating deity.

.........................

they've lived their lives, and how that is what brings them a sense of peace. Which isn't to say their beliefs bring them NO comfort, only that it doesn't seem to be the main thing that comforts them.

You sound like a classic free thinker to me. I could be wrong but I think it may be a thing thats in the blood, in the genes.


As for end of life, Im reminded of some papers of Felicia Nimue Ackerman. To quote one,

“The blanket presumption that the latter states [of poverty, pain, ill health] bring ‘misery’ that is worse than death is disrespectful to those who, having experienced them, disagree.”

She goes over how many of them, even in the throws of agony dont call out for death, but cry about the end of life and want to hold on to it. I wonder what kinds of things to this effect you may or may not see SC.

 

[Tekniques]

As appealing as these faiths were to me, as much as I desired to believe in them, I am burdened by that which we call reason, which just won't allow me to believe something that I have no evidence of other than another person's word that this is the truth, and a "feeling" in my heart that it's true.

I still do believe in something more, but I don't pretend to know what that something more is.

Great post, but my question to you is how you reconcile rejecting beliefs because of lack of evidence, and only a "feeling" that its true, then base your belief that there is "something more" entirely on what appears to be a feeling in your heart.

I also am attracted to the practical tenets of Buddhism but their cosmology is pretty wacky.