I don't think space is expanding.

[jonesdave116]

The CMB is supposed to the "ocean floor" so to speak of the universe.

The ISW effect should be in there.

How does it look to you?

Idiotic comment. And here was me thinking I might actually get a reasoned scientific reply! That'll teach me.

 

[jonesdave116]

I understand your logic.

I am thinking of the CMB as the radiation itself.

When you say the CMB is behind something, you're talking about the material source of the radiation.

Huh? You just mixed some random words together and out came some word salad!

The observations that show the CMB to be of cosmological origin are indisputable. As mentioned by others, the CMB is seen to be behind distant sources. We know this from lensing observations of the CMB by these sources. Which are what is known as large scale structure (LSS). Galaxy clusters and superclusters, in other words. They are the same LSS that is causing the ISW effect.
Furthermore, we also see that these distant structures are indisputably in front of the CMB from observations of the Sunyaev-Zel'dovich effect;

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunyaev–Zeldovich_effect

As I was trying to get at (and putting aside all the criticism of it from others), your 'proposal' has nothing that would distinguish it from consensus theory, and has no explanations for those observations that show it to be at variance with that theory (other than word salad and hand waving). It cannot, therefore, even be considered as a scientific hypothesis;

A hypothesis is an idea or proposition that can be tested by observations or experiments, about the natural world. In order to be considered scientific, hypotheses are subject to scientific evaluation and must be falsifiable, which means that they are worded in such a way that they can be proven to be incorrect.

https://sci.waikato.ac.nz/evolution/Theories.shtml

 

[Mike Helland]

The observations that show the CMB to be of cosmological origin are indisputable. As mentioned by others, the CMB is seen to be behind distant sources. We know this from lensing observations of the CMB by these sources. Which are what is known as large scale structure (LSS). Galaxy clusters and superclusters, in other words. They are the same LSS that is causing the ISW effect.

If the CMB is being produced everywhere, it would be behind galaxies too.

I'm not saying it 100% is. That's just the hypothesis.

Here's the facts:

1. light loses energy when it redshifts
2. there is excess energy detected in all directions

The energy budget of the expanding universe is quite, um, nonsensical. Light loses energy all over the place, and there's also excess energy from the beginning of time.

That could be true. I doubt it though.

As I was trying to get at (and putting aside all the criticism of it from others), your 'proposal' has nothing that would distinguish it from consensus theory, and has no explanations for those observations that show it to be at variance with that theory (other than word salad and hand waving). It cannot, therefore, even be considered as a scientific hypothesis;

This predicts mature galaxies in the "early" universe, which has been confirmed many times in the last several years.

 

[Ziggurat]

If the CMB is being produced everywhere, it would be behind galaxies too.

How many times do I need to explain this to you? That isn't possible. The source of the CMB is opaque. It cannot be produced everywhere, or you wouldn't be able to see anything other than the CMB.

 

[Mike Helland]

How many times do I need to explain this to you? That isn't possible. The source of the CMB is opaque. It cannot be produced everywhere, or you wouldn't be able to see anything other than the CMB.

You can stop explaining it if you want.

You think the CMB comes from a material source.

I understand your view.

Here's a paper from the time that inflation was invented.

https://www.nature.com/articles/277633a0

"An alternative explanation—a gradual energy loss of photons due to their interaction with curved space-time—is considered here. The basic premise is that because photons have a finite spread they are subject to tidal stresses and that this provides a mechanism for the transfer of momentum from the photon to the mass producing curved space-time. Any transfer of momentum without an equivalent transfer of energy will destroy the concept of the photon as a single elementary particle. It is therefore postulated that the interaction of the photon with curved space-time causes it to lose energy in the form of very low energy secondary photons. As well as providing an explanation for the Hubble redshift this hypothesis can also explain the solar limb effect, that is, the increasing redshift of solar spectral lines as the viewpoint approaches the limb of the Sun."

Does your view apply to that hypothesis?

 

[Ziggurat]

You can stop explaining it if you want.

You think the CMB comes from a material source.

No, Mike. It doesn't matter the source. This applies to any possible source. That's part of the power of thermodynamics.

Here's a paper from the time that inflation was invented.

I don't know why you think that paper is relevant. It's just another tired light theory, and we already know why they fail (starting with a lack of blurring for distant galaxies).

Does your view apply to that hypothesis?

Yes.

 

[Mike Helland]

Yes.

How so?

If secondary photons are emitted by an interaction between photons and spacetime curvature, between here and the sun, does it block out the sun?

I'm not asking if the hypothesis is right, but whether or not it applies.

I don't see how.

 

[Reality Check]

Mike Helland persists in his fantasies about the CMB when he knows it is cosmological

If the CMB is being produced everywhere, ....

The pit of ignorance, errors and fantasies that Mike Helland is digging himself into gets deeper.
29 March 2021: Mike Helland states his "decelerating photon" fantasy violates the laws of physics.
29 March 2021: Mike Helland starts a new "expanding time hypothesis" fantasy.
30 March 2021: "I am thinking of the CMB as the radiation itself." idiocy from Mike Helland.
31 March 2021: Mike Helland persists in his fantasies about the CMB when he knows it is cosmological.

Nothing in the current universe is a perfect black body at the temperature of 2.7K with fluctuations and a power spectrum that match the Big Bang predictions.

More making his pit deeper:
31 March 2021: "The energy budget of the expanding universe is quite, um, nonsensical" + "excess energy from the beginning of time" fantasies from Mike Helland.

31 March 2021: "This predicts mature galaxies in the "early" universe" idiocy when he has no predictions !
Mike Helland has the idiocy of an "indefinite" age to the universe. That means he cannot predict an age for the universe. Mike Helland is ignorance about high school level science and thus totally ignorant about the advance astrophysics of galaxy formation and evolution. His idea is basically 1 webpage with nothing on his galaxy formation and evolution models.

Mike Helland fantasizes that the finding of some mature galaxies earlier than mainstream models predict can be fixed by making the age of the universe earlier. That is idiotic because the most likely cause is the mainstream modeling. That is idiotic because of the strong evidence that the age of the universe is 13.799±0.021 billion years. It is also idiotic because he suggests his static universe has an age! Look at his "energy budget" comment above. He has an entire universe popping into existence !

 

[Mike Helland]

Mike Helland fantasizes that the finding of some mature galaxies earlier than mainstream models predict can be fixed by making the age of the universe earlier. That is idiotic because the most likely cause is the mainstream modeling. That is idiotic because of the strong evidence that the age of the universe is 13.799±0.021 billion years. It is also idiotic because he suggests his static universe has an age! Look at his "energy budget" comment above. He has an entire universe popping into existence !

Correction: inflation has the entire universe popping into existence.

Also, what value of H₀ gives you 13.8 billion years?

Is that the measured value?

 

[Ziggurat]

How so?

If secondary photons are emitted by an interaction between photons and spacetime curvature, between here and the sun, does it block out the sun?

That interaction isn't possible unless the reverse can happen too (ie, two photons combine into one). And it cannot produce a black body spectrum unless it's opaque.

Now there is something known as optical depth, and it's possible for something to be opaque on a sufficiently large scale but close to transparent on a short scale. You're already familiar with this (see: the ocean). In a hypothetical alternate reality, space could be opaque but with an optical depth larger than our galaxy. In such a case, there would be no noticeable absorption between the sun and us. But by the same token, emission takes place on that length scale as well.

And again, we can SEE very distant galaxies. If space had an optical depth, it would have to be many billions of light years at a minimum. So that still puts most emissions as coming from behind distant galaxies.

I'm not asking if the hypothesis is right, but whether or not it applies.

It does.

I don't see how.

That is of no consequence. You don't know any physics to speak of.

You cannot get emission without the possibility of absorption.

 

[Reality Check]

Total gibberish about what looks like his CMB fantasy from Mike Helland

If secondary photons are emitted by an interaction between photons and spacetime curvature, between here and the sun, does it block out the sun?

31 March 2021: Total gibberish about what looks like his CMB fantasy from Mike Helland.

The post is certainly nothing to do with the real CMB ! The CMB is photons throughout the universe. There are no "secondary photons". There is no "interaction between photons and spacetime curvature".
The irrelevant letter he cited with this phrases is an ignored 1979 speculation on cosmological redshift.

 

[Mike Helland]

You cannot get emission without the possibility of absorption.

How does spacetime curvature absorb photons in Crawford's hypothesis?

 

[Reality Check]

Mike Helland is ignorant about inflation and the calculated age of the universe

Correction: inflation has the entire universe popping into existence.

The pit of ignorance, errors and fantasies that Mike Helland is digging himself into gets deeper.
29 March 2021: Mike Helland states his "decelerating photon" fantasy violates the laws of physics.
29 March 2021: Mike Helland starts a new "expanding time hypothesis" fantasy.
30 March 2021: "I am thinking of the CMB as the radiation itself." idiocy from Mike Helland.
31 March 2021: Mike Helland persists in his fantasies about the CMB when he knows it is cosmological.
31 March 2021: "The energy budget of the expanding universe is quite, um, nonsensical" + "excess energy from the beginning of time" fantasies from Mike Helland.
31 March 2021: "This predicts mature galaxies in the "early" universe" idiocy when he has no predictions !

31 March 2021: "inflation has the entire universe popping into existence" ignorance from Mike Helland.
Inflation is the fast expansion of an existing universe.
31 March 2021: "What value of H₀ gives you 13.8 billion years" ignorance from Mike Helland.
The age of the universe based on the best fit to Planck 2015 data alone is 13.813±0.038 billion years...

 

[Reality Check]

Mike Helland derails the thread with a 1979 Nature letter with only 9 citations

Does your view apply to that hypothesis?

31 March 2021: Mike Helland derails the thread with a 1979 Nature letter with only 9 citations since then!
The next posts suggest Mike Helland will persist with this irrelevant letter.

There are criteria scientists apply to papers to reduce the amount of junk they have to read. A credible paper

• Is a paper not a letter!
• Has multiple authors.
• Is cited many times a year.
• Has been followed up.
• Has a physically credible abstract.

 

[Mike Helland]

The pit of ignorance, errors and fantasies that Mike Helland is digging himself into gets deeper.
29 March 2021: Mike Helland states his "decelerating photon" fantasy violates the laws of physics.
29 March 2021: Mike Helland starts a new "expanding time hypothesis" fantasy.
30 March 2021: "I am thinking of the CMB as the radiation itself." idiocy from Mike Helland.
31 March 2021: Mike Helland persists in his fantasies about the CMB when he knows it is cosmological.
31 March 2021: "The energy budget of the expanding universe is quite, um, nonsensical" + "excess energy from the beginning of time" fantasies from Mike Helland.
31 March 2021: "This predicts mature galaxies in the "early" universe" idiocy when he has no predictions !

31 March 2021: "inflation has the entire universe popping into existence" ignorance from Mike Helland.
Inflation is the fast expansion of an existing universe.
31 March 2021: "What value of H₀ gives you 13.8 billion years" ignorance from Mike Helland.
The age of the universe based on the best fit to Planck 2015 data alone is 13.813±0.038 billion years...

What value of H₀ gives you that age?

Is that what the latest measurements say too?

 

[Reality Check]

...

Answered in the post he replied to !
The cosmological parameters from the 2015 Planck results include H₀ of ~67. The Hubble tension is that supernova data gives ~72.

 

[Reality Check]

The pit of ignorance, errors and fantasies that Mike Helland is digging himself into

The pit of ignorance, errors and fantasies that Mike Helland is digging himself into gets deeper.
29 March 2021: Mike Helland states his "decelerating photon" fantasy violates the laws of physics.
29 March 2021: Mike Helland starts a new "expanding time hypothesis" fantasy.
30 March 2021: "I am thinking of the CMB as the radiation itself." idiocy from Mike Helland.
31 March 2021: Mike Helland persists in his fantasies about the CMB when he knows it is cosmological.
31 March 2021: "The energy budget of the expanding universe is quite, um, nonsensical" + "excess energy from the beginning of time" fantasies from Mike Helland.
31 March 2021: "This predicts mature galaxies in the "early" universe" idiocy when he has no predictions !
31 March 2021: "inflation has the entire universe popping into existence" ignorance from Mike Helland.
31 March 2021: "What value of H₀ gives you 13.8 billion years" ignorance from Mike Helland.

 

[Mike Helland]

Answered in the post he replied to !

You didn't provide a value for H₀.

And the article you cited is 6 years old.

The latest measurements don't agree with 13.8 billion years old.

 

[Reality Check]

....

Another post emphasizing Mike Helland's ignorance of cosmology or the ability to remember what is in this thread ! The Hubble tension has been mentioned many times.
Also ignorance about Wikipedia. The article I cited was Age of the universe was last edited on 27 March 2021‎! The 2015 Planck results were published in ... 2015 !

Also he ignores my points about the ignorance that he wrote even about his idea!
31 March 2021: "This predicts mature galaxies in the "early" universe" idiocy when he has no predictions !
He has never predicted more mature galaxies in the early universe because he has no astrophysics to make any such predictions.
31 March 2021: "inflation has the entire universe popping into existence" ignorance from Mike Helland.
Anyone who has learned about cosmology knows that the inflationary epoch is the exponential expansion of an existing universe.

 

[Ziggurat]

How does spacetime curvature absorb photons in Crawford's hypothesis?

Time reversal of the emission process. Really, Mike, you keep proving how completely clueless you are about really basic physics principles.

ETA: neither the emission or absorption process are real in this case, but you cannot have one without the other. It's either both or neither.