I don't think space is expanding.

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1. To accurately represent the Hubble's angular resolution, the tube should be at least ten times longer.


Based on this, given that light enters the HST, which is a tube, not a very long one, but a tube, and then light hits reflectors at the back....

... that any light moving slow enough wrt the telescope would hit the sides and never make it to the sensors.

That means... according to the hypothesis... a space telescope that doesn't have the tube, and has reflectors or lenses front and center, wouldn't filter out the slowest moving photons.

296207main_JWST_diagram_HI.jpg


Heyo!

If JWST picks up light with z's way beyond what we thought possible, you might have explained the reason why.

I'm going to mention this in my writings, if you would like acknowledgments and to what degree, please let me know in a private message.
 
So you think light years are a unit of time?


I'll come back to this conversation in 2 miles.

No, that's the distance known as Hubble's Length, where space is expanding at c.

D = c / H

I think you were trying to confuse me, and confused yourself, fast and tall person.
 
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Thank you very much for taking the time to spell this out very clearly.

It was pretty exciting to read. I wonder if you've seen the experiment for the hypothesis I propose that involves a space tube.

[qimg]https://mikehelland.github.io/hubbles-law/img/experiment1.png[/qimg]

The idea here is if high z light is traveling slower than c, shuttering the tube should eliminate light from entering, leaving what's in there to travel to the sensor. A high speed camera, if the hypothesis is right, would reveal the final frames only contain the oldest light.

I'm all about space tube.


Yes, I did see it. The experiment of shuttering the tube would work, in principle. It's just that the experiment of imaging deep fields of cosmically distant objects at a tenth of an arcsecond resolution using a long exposure by an orbiting telescope, using orbital aberration corrections calculated for all the incident light moving at c, proving that there are no significant variations of the velocity of light from cosmically distant sources, has the advantage of having already been done.

I was thinking about shuttering the tube, but you're talking about our motion naturally shuttering slow light leaving new light.


Right, roughly. Imagine the tube and telescope in that picture moving in the downward on the page direction. (You have to widen your diagram by a few hundred miles to show the galaxies in scale, or just imagine instead of one red and one yellow line, there is a field of them, all horizontal, extending up and down the page from galaxies very far away to the right.) The "fast" yellow photons might still make it through to the telescope while the "slow" red photons wouldn't. Tilt the telescope off of horizontal to compensate, and you could create the opposite situation. But the real Hubble has no trouble, even at very high angular resolutions, imaging the red and yellow object side by side using the same orbital (and annual, etc.) aberration corrections for both.

The z would have to be pretty high for Earth's motion to be a factor.

Really? The math is pretty simple. Let's say the lateral orbital motion of the scope is 4 km/s (a typical rather than a maximum value). For light at c, that requires an aberration correction angle of atan(4/300,000) = 2.75 arc seconds.

Would it make a difference if light were going at .99c instead? Let's see: atan(4/(.99 * 300000)) = 2.78 arc seconds. One Hubble pixel is about 0.1 arc seconds across, so not much of one.

How about .96c instead? atan(4/(.96 * 300000)) = 2.86 arc seconds. Oops, that photon lands on the wrong pixel.

At .9c, it's 3.05 arc seconds. Those photons are landing two pixels away (in some direction, and sometimes three or four pixels away, varying with the orbital position) and there'd be an easily noticeable degradation of the expected resolution. That's less than a tenth of the distance (per your formula) of the optically observable universe. Most of the objects in the deep field are much more redshifted and farther way.

If the galaxies are actually much closer than we think, slow moving light would make it look much farther away, and we take care of the angle's based on an overestimation of distance (which is showed in comparison of simulations).


Are you saying your equation relating observed redshift to distance is wrong?

I'm just curious, the tube in your post is a pixel? Not literally a tube?


The tube (especially its length relative to its width) is a model that helps to visualize how precise the relevant angles are, and the effect of the telescope's lateral motion at its orbital speeds on those angles.

In theory you could make a telescope out of tubes, with no lenses or mirrors. You'd need a tube for each pixel, so at least a million of them. To have the same "speed" (light gathering power) as the Hubble you'd want each tube to be as wide as the Hubble's mirror (93 inches) with a sensitive 93-inch diameter sensor at the bottom. So to have a 0.1 arcsecond field of view each tube would have to be about 3,000 miles long. The bundle of tubes would be about a mile and a half square at the sensor end (actually a bit less; you'd want a hexagonal packing but I've assumed square to simplify the calculations). The tubes would be spread apart slightly farther at the open end, giving the array a barely noticeable curvature totaling 1.67 arc-minutes or one thirty-sixth of a degree.

If you kept adding more tubes at the edges, it would eventually look (and function) like a section of a humongous compound eye. Cool, but not very practical.

Doesn't the light entering the Hubble's sensors bounce off a big mirror first?

It's the angle the light impinges on the moving mirror (NOT, by the way, the position on the mirror's surface!) that determines which pixel of the image it contributes to. The incidence angle of the photon on the moving mirror is just as important as the angle it enters the moving tube in the tube model. That's the angle that has to be consistent to within 0.1 arc-second to get a focused image with that resolution. (The dimensions of the Hubble's actual tube are irrelevant here.)
 
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Yes, I did see it.

The motivation behind that experiment is to leave the photon undisturbed until the end of the experiment.

From my paper

The photon's distance from where it was emitted is crucial to keep in mind at all times. Consider light that has traveled billions of years to reach your telescope. The light enters the lens, gets focused to the eyepiece, and then into your eyeball.

Seems pretty straightforward. But at some level, some type of interaction with the light and the lens must be focusing the light. At the quantum level, the photon will have been absorbed by atoms in the lens. Then it is re-emitted (or an entirely new photon is emitted), and focused to your telescope's eyepiece.

The photon may have traveled great distances from its source before it encountered your telescope, but the light inside the telescope will be very close to its source: the lens that focused it. The distance to the source of the photons in the telescope will be less than a meter, not millions of light years.

In that case the refreshed photon will be traveling at c, which now results in an elongated wavelength when calculated.

What I'm trying to avoid is reflecting or focusing the light with some apparatus at the beginning of the experiment. My thinking is that at the quantum level, this absorbs and emits photons where distance and velocity are reset.

We want photons undisturbed until the end.

You're considering each pixel a tube.. but the photons hitting those pixels has only traveled a few meters from a mirror, so they'll be traveling at c.

The light does enter a tube, but the Hubble is like this, but only 43 feet long.

Due to its 43 ft long tube, and its motion, it would be filtering out light that hits the side of the tube, if the light isn't traveling fast enough to go 43 feet until the telescope has moved far enough.


The experiment of shuttering the tube would work, in principle. It's just that the experiment of imaging deep fields of cosmically distant objects at a tenth of an arcsecond resolution using a long exposure by an orbiting telescope, using orbital aberration corrections calculated for all the incident light moving at c, proving that there are no significant variations of the velocity of light from cosmically distant sources, has the advantage of having already been done.

Understood.

Based on angles and distances from the expanding models.


Really? The math is pretty simple.

I mean for a 43 feet long tube. I'll get back to you with my calculations.


Are you saying your equation relating observed redshift to distance is wrong?

Close.

I thought that if the photon lost speed at H * D, that would be equal to the target moving away by H * D.

Turns out... that's not true.

graph_white_hypothesis1.png


I'd be grateful if you had a couple minutes to read the paper (it goes quick, I think)

https://mikehelland.github.io/hubbles-law/

And look at the testing page to see all the hypotheses being checked:

https://mikehelland.github.io/hubbles-law/test.htm

What these graphs are saying to me is that the expanding models are over estimating proper distances.


It's the angle the light impinges on the moving mirror (NOT, by the way, the position on the mirror's surface!) that determines which pixel of the image it contributes to. The incidence angle of the photon on the moving mirror is just as important as the angle it enters the moving tube in the tube model. That's the angle that has to be consistent to within 0.1 arc-second to get a focused image with that resolution. (The dimensions of the Hubble's actual tube are irrelevant here.)

Are you basing that angle on the speed, as to mimic a medium?

Sorry if that's a stupid and/or tedious question.
 
Thank you very much.

You've been very helpful.

In the expanding models I was making, it was pretty obvious right away that putting the target in motion or putting the light source in motion makes a difference, indicating a preferred frame.

That’s a problem.

My solution was to not compare the photon's x position, but the photon's distance from the source's x position. If the source was in motion, then, the photon's motion would be linked to it.

You started this because you though dark energy and inflation were getting to strange and disconnected from experiment. But this... this is far, far worse. And it isn’t even a solution. How do you link the photon’s motion to the source at a distance? I don’t mean what’s the mechanism, I mean you still need a preferred frame. Without a preferred frame, then there are a bunch of possible motions of the source, and no way to pick among them. So this solution is no solution at all, as it still requires a preferred frame.

You’ve swallowed a horse to catch a fly.

Which is basically a kind of emitter theory. But the model's worked regardless of whether the source was in a rest or not.

No, Mike, your model doesn’t work. It doesn’t even make sense.

But you were saying the theory isn't internally consistent. And I actually did work that out.

You quite obviously didn’t work that out.
 
Based on this, given that light enters the HST, which is a tube, not a very long one, but a tube, and then light hits reflectors at the back....

... that any light moving slow enough wrt the telescope would hit the sides and never make it to the sensors.

That means... according to the hypothesis... a space telescope that doesn't have the tube, and has reflectors or lenses front and center, wouldn't filter out the slowest moving photons.

[qimg]https://www.nasa.gov/images/content/296207main_JWST_diagram_HI.jpg[/qimg]

Heyo!

If JWST picks up light with z's way beyond what we thought possible, you might have explained the reason why.


For optical systems using lenses and/or mirrors, the tube does nothing critical. (It often holds the optical elements in place, and it's good for keeping bright light that's off to the side from adding spurious stray signals like lens flares. So it can be pretty important, but it doesn't determine the key optical qualities of the system, such as field of view or resolution.) With lenses and parabolic mirrors, it's all about incidence angles. That's why your eye can do what an insect's compound eye can do, but more efficiently.

Do you know what an imaging system actually does? If you don't I'm not surprised; most explanations out there either get bogged down in complex terminology and math, or are too simple, either way seeming to miss the basic point.

Suppose the Starship Enterprise were hovering a few thousands kilometers from the Webb telescope. Assuming the telescope is pointed away from the sun, every visible part of the Enterprise is reflecting sunlight in every direction back toward the telescope.

Consider, for instance, the thingie at the tip of the prong in the middle of the dish at the front. Light from the sun is being reflected off the thingie toward the telescope's primary mirror. Photons from the thingie are striking every part of the mirror. But because those photons are coming from so far away, even though they're hitting the mirror in all different places, they're all hitting it at nearly the same angle relative to the orientation (and motion, if there's relative motion) of the mirror.

If all those photons, after bouncing off the mirror and the secondary mirror and whatever additional optical elements are in their path, end up on the same spot on the image sensor (or on a frame of photographic film or whatever), then two important things are true: the Enterprise (or at least the thingie) must be within the telescope's field of view, and the Enterprise is in focus. If those photons end up on different places on the image sensor (or film frame, etc.) then the image is blurred. If they don't end up on the sensor (or film frame, etc.) at all, then the Enterprise is out of the telescope's field of view. Or cloaked.

That's what a telescope, a lensed eye, a camera etc. does. It sorts the incident photons onto positions on the image plane based on their incidence angle. (Within a range of angles, aka the field of view.) Photons coming from the direction of the upper left corner of the field of view (even if they contact the primary lens in the center or in the center of the bottom edge) should end up contributing to the qualities of only the upper left corner of the video screen (or developed photo print, your retinal image*, etc.) A focused image is a successful sort operation.

For high resolution optics such as the Webb, the motion of the instrument relative to the incident photons affects that all-important angle of incidence, and so must be compensated for, especially for a long exposure.** That compensation cannot work if the incident photons have varying speeds.


*Actually optical images often get "sorted" in reverse, which is why the image on your retina or on your camera's sensor is said to be upside down. It's easy for further processing of the image to undo the reversal where necessary.

**Note that in a short exposure during which the motion of the telescope remains roughly constant, light from a more distant object having a different speed wouldn't blur the image of the more distant object, but it would alter its position in the frame relative to nearer objects. That position would then appear inconsistent when comparing images taken from different times and places.
 
Sorry I'm so dense.

You asked when.

My answer was when it reaches a distance of 13-14 billion light years.

To say at what time would depend on the model. You can play with them here:

https://mikehelland.github.io/hubbles-law/test.htm
Thanks, this is actually an unexpected step forward. Now, when that time has elapsed what will it actually find there? Will that place be what you said it would be?
 
Understood.

Based on angles and distances from the expanding models.


Nope. If the universe we observe turned out to actually be a giant spherical video screen placed around the Solar System a light year away by aliens to mess with us, the Hubble would still have to correct for aberration to get a focused long-exposure image of the video screen's display. And if the parts of the video screen that displayed redshifted galaxies somehow emitted slower photons than the other parts, the deep field image would still be blurred due to the failure of that correction.

There would be some parallax anomalies detectable via other means that would give the Romulans' sinister plan away. But the focused deep field images taken by the Hubble during long multi-orbit exposures would still prove the consistency of the speed of incident light into the solar system from objects with different redshifts.
 
You quite obviously didn’t work that out.

I very much appreciate your spirited skepticism, but I did. I made a demo for you here:

https://mikehelland.github.io/hubbles-law/expanding_frame.htm

Click "Run All"

The top frame is what most of my other models show, the source at rest and, in the case of expanding models, a moving target.

The second model shows the same simulation where the target is at rest. Since c is moving at the same speed, none of the delays occur.

The third model shows the target at rest, but with an emission theory style photon, the new lines of code are:

this.photon.sourceX += this.photon.source_startX * this.H / 1000
this.photon.d += c
this.photon.x = this.photon.sourceX - this.photon.d

The emission theory works as advertised, and now the model has no preferred frame.

I'm not saying this to proclaim the hypothesis' truth, but show it can be internally consistent given a change in frame of reference.

The theory passes the Michelson & Morley experiment. Beyond that.. that's a different question.
 
Thanks, this is actually an unexpected step forward. Now, when that time has elapsed what will it actually find there? Will that place be what you said it would be?

In the standard model, it will find an eternity of space expanding faster than it can travel.
 
In the standard model, it will find an eternity of space expanding faster than it can travel.
You're back to telling me it's faster than it is long.

Go back to what you said at the start of this. Will it have left space that wasn't expanding faster than c and then "reached" space that is expanding faster than c at this future time you are talking about?

Do the arithmetic. You should run in to a big problem along the way.
 
I very much appreciate your spirited skepticism, but I did.

No, Mike, you didn’t, not really. Physics theories are complex because so many things all interlock together. You have looked at one thing, but have overlooked countless others. I keep finding new ways in which your theory is wrong, and I doubt I caught them all either. Your demo doesn’t fix them

The third model shows the target at rest, but with an emission theory

The emission theory works as advertised, and now the model has no preferred frame.

Emission theory is already proven wrong, so it’s not relevant.

I'm not saying this to proclaim the hypothesis' truth, but show it can be internally consistent given a change in frame of reference.

Emission theory was never really internally consistent, because you can’t actually make electrodynamic equations for it that work. You have to hand wave that stuff away. That isn’t real consistency. And again, it’s just wrong. I’m afraid your theory is too. The experiments have already been done.
 
No, Mike, you didn’t, not really. Physics theories are complex because so many things all interlock together. You have looked at one thing, but have overlooked countless others. I keep finding new ways in which your theory is wrong, and I doubt I caught them all either. Your demo doesn’t fix them



Emission theory is already proven wrong, so it’s not relevant.



Emission theory was never really internally consistent, because you can’t actually make electrodynamic equations for it that work. You have to hand wave that stuff away. That isn’t real consistency. And again, it’s just wrong. I’m afraid your theory is too. The experiments have already been done.

Just keeping on the internally inconsistent claim, do we agree that being inconsistent with experiment is different than being internally inconsistent?
 
You're back to telling me it's faster than it is long.

Go back to what you said at the start of this. Will it have left space that wasn't expanding faster than c and then "reached" space that is expanding faster than c at this future time you are talking about?

Do the arithmetic. You should run in to a big problem along the way.

I'm sorry again for being so stupid, but you're kind of confusing.

To clarify, are you denying there's a Hubble limit?
 
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