I DON'T SUPPORT our troops.

[Orwell]

You will note that S. Korea is better off than the part of Korea that wasn't "occupied" by US troops...

That wasn't the point, now, was it?

 

[Tony]

Ok, don't blame the troops, but ultimately they are responsible. Talk about a mixed message.

I think this is the Catch-22 inherent in the notion that "I was following orders" being not regarded a legitimate defense for a soldier's actions during war.

 

[Tony]

I think "I support the troops" is meaningless clap-trap propagated by politicians and commentators wishing to drum-up support for their war policies. Regardless of whether the author supports the troops or not, he is forgetting that we, in America, have no choice but to support the troops. Our pocketbooks are literally robbed to support the troops, their officers and the beaurcracy comes with them. Yeah, I support the troops, but I don't want to.

 

[a_unique_person]

That may be so but Skeptic seems to be implying that anyone, from the "anti-war crowd", who doesn't support winning the war has somehow not thought it through.

Just because you live in a country doesn't mean you have to blindly follow every decision they make. This isn't a matter of national security, it's a war in a far away land.

By not supporting the ongoing war, one might hope to effect future decisions.

I would add that I think the troops should stay there until things have settled and hopefully we'll be left with a stable democracy.

That is Skeptics standard method of argument, attack the person he's debating, not argue the point. You may as well give up now, it is impossible to get through to him.

 

[Mycroft]

It fails for you but not all people. As i mentioned in a reply to jj, would you expect all iraqis to have supported the invasion of kuwait just because they are iraqis?

Don't you understand that not supporting the invasion is very different from hoping their troops lose in battle?

You may love your country but you can still condemn some of her actions and morals.

Condemning actions is very different from rooting for the guys who want to kill your soldiers.

You would have a point if we were doing something reprehensible. If we ordered our troops into Canada to annex that entire nation and begin a program of genocide on Canadians, then perhaps one could understand wishing them to fail.

But we’re not doing anything reprehensible. We liberated 25 million people from a despot, we are then returning the country back to its own people after helping them to create a new democracy with representation for all. The ones we are fighting against are jihadists who, given the chance, would subject Iraq to another Taliban style oppressive theocracy.

The best arguments against this war are morally ambiguous; we spent too much money, a few thousand of our own troops is too high a price to pay for the freedom of Iraqis, it’s uncertain that the number of civilians killed by our war is less than what Saddam and his sons would have killed over time. Do any of these justify rooting for US failure? No, of course not.

 

[peptoabysmal]

To leave the Iraqis defenseless from their neighbors and ripe for civil war at this point would be immoral and inhuman. It may well turn into Hamastan #2 one of these days, but we need to try and give them other options before this happens. We destroyed their military and removed a regime that was holding the country together with sheer brutality. It won't change overnight.

 

[Godmode]

I don't support the troops either, supporting the troops is supporting the war. I'm sure individually the troops are very fine fellows. That doesn't change my opinion of what they're doing.

I am not anti-American. I am not anti-military. I do not believe that loyalty to one's country equals loyalty to the government.

 

[Mephisto]

any ideas anyone? what is (for you) a "win" in Iraq would be and how it would be decided that the "win" has happened? How long would you continue to support the presence of a large portion of the US army in Iraq after this condition is met....

Is anyone able to point me to the answer to this from the current US government...what is the official "win" criteria?

I'm not too sure, but I think it's one of these:

A. Iraq converts to Christianity and aligns itself with the "mandate from heaven."

B. The Iraqis embrace Democracy and the American way of life, there is a mass emmigration to the U.S. where they promptly overturn Roe Vs. Wade.

C. the most popular TV show in Iraq is "Iraqi Idol."

 

[Orwell]

I happen to think that the presence of US troops in Iraq is contributing to the instability in Iraq. The US army fights terrorists, but this dirty war creates new hatreds (and re-enforces old hatreds) that en up strengthening the terrorists.

 

[Darat]

You seem to have gone from a 70% turnout to a 70% vote for the Government. Which is it? And does this include the areas of Iraq that weren't included in the vote?

...snip...

Sorry that was just sloppy wording on my part. I should have said something like "70% of the people participated in the process that elected the government" (although it seems the 70% is also wrong - different reports place it between 56 and 70%).

I have to admit I wasn't aware of any areas that weren't allowed to vote - what percentage of the population did those areas represent?

 

[Mycroft]

I happen to think that the presence of US troops in Iraq is contributing to the instability in Iraq.

Do you think Iraq would be more stable if US troops left?

The US army fights terrorists, but this dirty war creates new hatreds (and re-enforces old hatreds) that en up strengthening the terrorists.

Why do you presume they will pay more attention to the fighting and less attention to the work being done to rebuild their infrastructure?

 

[bob_kark]

I think this is the Catch-22 inherent in the notion that "I was following orders" being not regarded a legitimate defense for a soldier's actions during war.

Sure, I can understand blaming US troops for incidents such as Abu Gharib. Which is why they were courtmarshalled, though I do think the real culprits will never be tried. However, to blame the war on them, when they had no contol as to whether or not we go to war to begin with, is a bit of a leap. I'd also like to add that blaming them for participating in the war is also a leap, the ones who have attempted to desert were promptly tried and convicted.

 

[bob_kark]

Why do you presume they will pay more attention to the fighting and less attention to the work being done to rebuild their infrastructure?

Do you really believe that the average Iraqi is grateful that it has taken the US two and a half years to still not be able to restore Iraq to pre-war conditions? Let's add to that the fact that hundreds of millions of dollars earmarked for reconstruction have disappeared without a trace.

 

[Anti_Hypeman]

Most people who claim to support our troops dont. The government dosent even support us when we come home. If you come home sick or injured you are really in trouble. I have a big problem with National Guard being used like full time Army but when we come home we dont get any of the full time Army benefits.

Last drill I recieved a dental exam form that I'm supposed to take to my own dentist. They want me to pay for a dental exam out of my pocket so they can assess my deployability what kind of crap is that.

I just started school again and had to pay for it out of my own pocket because the application process to use the G.I. Bill benefits that I was promised is 6-8 months behind. By the time I get any money for school the semester will be over so whats the point. The money will come eventaully and the school knows that but they refuse to give us any leeway. I cant register for classes far enough ahead to get any of the money before they start, why did I join again?

I can say from experience that you cant expect your job or school to work with you at all even if you are just leaving for a few weeks, I have been screwed by both more than once. All the "We Support Our Troops" signs posted around dont mean crap when it comes down to it, their support ended with putting up the sign.

I have just barely managed to get enough together to start school and pay for books but now I might have to drop all my classes anyway. I have orders to be gone nearly all of next month. None of the "patriots" at the school seem to be willing to bend any of the rules in the slightest but hey they have flags on their cars so hell yeah I feel the support. The rules say you cant turn in a paper or take a test late, sorry go to hell and notice our ribbons on the way out USA USA USA.

Companies are not supposed to be able to fire you for getting deployed but it happens all the time. There are loopholes in that law they can use to give you the boot. Dont expect the government to help you fight it when you get back either.

Regualar Army can do their time, come home, and then go to school. I have to be active in the guard to use any of the educatinal benefits but how am I supposed to do that when I get deployed at least once a semester? It turns out the money is a sham anyway unless you can enroll in your school a year in advance so I guess it dosent matter.

Yes Im bitter, I have been deployed and then I get home only to be constantly screwed out of the benefits I was promised by all these people that "support the troops". Maybe Hannity is willing to pay for my books? Most peoples support ends with putting a magnet on the car.

 

[Mycroft]

Do you really believe that the average Iraqi is grateful that it has taken the US two and a half years to still not be able to restore Iraq to pre-war conditions? Let's add to that the fact that hundreds of millions of dollars earmarked for reconstruction have disappeared without a trace.

I made no such claims, however I do object to the suggestion that Iraqis are different somehow and only able to notice/ respond to things that might fill them with rage and lead them towards violence, and are incapable of seeing positive changes.

 

[Tony]

To leave the Iraqis defenseless from their neighbors and ripe for civil war at this point would be immoral and inhuman.

So? It's not like such concerns have stayed the Government’s or Republican's hands on previous occasions. This is nothing but an empty excuse for continuing with this failed war policy.

 

[Tony]

Most people who claim to support our troops dont. The government dosent even support us when we come home. If you come home sick or injured you are really in trouble. I have a big problem with National Guard being used like full time Army but when we come home we dont get any of the full time Army benefits.

Last drill I recieved a dental exam form that I'm supposed to take to my own dentist. They want me to pay for a dental exam out of my pocket so they can assess my deployability what kind of crap is that.

I just started school again and had to pay for it out of my own pocket because the application process to use the G.I. Bill benefits that I was promised is 6-8 months behind. By the time I get any money for school the semester will be over so whats the point. The money will come eventaully and the school knows that but they refuse to give us any leeway. I cant register for classes far enough ahead to get any of the money before they start, why did I join again?

I can say from experience that you cant expect your job or school to work with you at all even if you are just leaving for a few weeks, I have been screwed by both more than once. All the "We Support Our Troops" signs posted around dont mean crap when it comes down to it, their support ended with putting up the sign.

I have just barely managed to get enough together to start school and pay for books but now I might have to drop all my classes anyway. I have orders to be gone nearly all of next month. None of the "patriots" at the school seem to be willing to bend any of the rules in the slightest but hey they have flags on their cars so hell yeah I feel the support. The rules say you cant turn in a paper or take a test late, sorry go to hell and notice our ribbons on the way out USA USA USA.

Companies are not supposed to be able to fire you for getting deployed but it happens all the time. There are loopholes in that law they can use to give you the boot. Dont expect the government to help you fight it when you get back either.

Regualar Army can do their time, come home, and then go to school. I have to be active in the guard to use any of the educatinal benefits but how am I supposed to do that when I get deployed at least once a semester? It turns out the money is a sham anyway unless you can enroll in your school a year in advance so I guess it dosent matter.

Yes Im bitter, I have been deployed and then I get home only to be constantly screwed out of the benefits I was promised by all these people that "support the troops". Maybe Hannity is willing to pay for my books? Most peoples support ends with putting a magnet on the car.

You're obviously someone who has been planted here to slander the brave American government and the brave American fighting men. Not to mention the honored dead.

 

[Anti_Hypeman]

You're obviously someone who has been planted here to slander the brave American government and the brave American fighting men. Not to mention the honored dead.

Obviously I hate our freedom. It just bugs the hell out of me that people who claim to support our troops support an administration that craps on us every day. How anybody could be pro Bush and support our troops is beyond me. I enlisted under Clinton and it didnt take this long to get the money, I guess its all the cuts.

We can pay Brown & Root gate gaurds 100k each but cant hire a few more secretaries to process paperwork? I think its "backlogged" on purpose so that less people will be able to use it. I have heard that only 1/3 of soldiers entitled to education benefits ever see a penny, now I believe it.

 

[Ian Osborne]

Can't you just turn up to the war six months late?

 

[Orwell]

Do you think Iraq would be more stable if US troops left?

More stable? If the pull-out happened slowly, and the Iraqis took progressively over, I think the answer could be yes; in all probably, still pretty unstable after the pull-out, but maybe a bit better than now.

Why do you presume they will pay more attention to the fighting and less attention to the work being done to rebuild their infrastructure?

Because the "rebuilding the infrastructure" part has been done slowly and incompetently, if at all (plus there have been numerous accusations of corruption and favouritism).