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I challenge you: your best argument for materialism

Is it promoting or exposing? After all, we wouldn't want to be ignorant about our own ignorance... unless, you know, that feels better.

And Ken Ham trains kids in school to ask teachers "were you there?" when they're taught about pre-6000 year old Earth.

Ignorance is a constraint, not a value. Mysticism believes that ignorance is a horse you can bet on even when there's no race that day.
 
Is it promoting or exposing? After all, we wouldn't want to be ignorant about our own ignorance... unless, you know, that feels better.


Everyone is ignorant until they learn so what can you teach me about mysticism? After all, we wouldn't be casting sly slurs about our fellow posters ....unless, you know, that feels better.
 
And Ken Ham trains kids in school to ask teachers "were you there?" when they're taught about pre-6000 year old Earth.

Ignorance is a constraint, not a value. Mysticism believes that ignorance is a horse you can bet on even when there's no race that day.

The mystics have this constant refrain "Humanz iz just teh dumb so how can we knowz reality is teh realz".
 
How do you know what we don't know?
Rational thought.
Sounds like you are praising ignorance. Is mysticism nothing more than promoting ignorance?
ignorance is a fact in some areas of enquiry, do you deny it?

Some folk around here make out that such areas of enquiry are pointless, meaningless, have no value, incoherent, etc.
 
Something exists. Of that you can be absolutely certain. Determining the nature of that thing is not helpful. However, by carefyl studying you and other people who also seem to exist can unlock the secrets of how this thing works, and use it to your advantage.

That's basically the whole idea of science and materialism.
That's great.

Materialism is a branch of philosophy and is subject to philosophical caveats.

Oh you mention advantage, does this include short sighted advantage?
 
Bernardo said:
As some of you know, I think materialism is baloney. I subscribe to the much more parsimonious and skeptical notion that reality is in a trans-personal form of consciousness, of which we are localizations -- like whirlpools in a stream. This ontology is often called monistic idealism.

I don't know what trans-personal consciousness is.
I wonder if it was around during the early Archaean on Earth. Something was around, because rocks were forming- rather similar to some being formed today. There's a bit of gneiss dated at around 4 billion years old on my desk right now.

There is no evidence (AFAIK) of anything likely to have been conscious in any sense at that time.

I must ask then, if this rock is unreal.
It feels real. I think it would pass Dr.Johnson's kick test. If anyone thinks it is unreal, I would be happy to smack him or her over the head with it, so they can check.

Perhaps the rocks themselves were part of this " trans personal consciousness"
I have asked, but my rock stands mute.
 
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And Ken Ham trains kids in school to ask teachers "were you there?" when they're taught about pre-6000 year old Earth.

Ignorance is a constraint, not a value. Mysticism believes that ignorance is a horse you can bet on even when there's no race that day.

Is Ken Ham's little gotcha really equivalent to questions about epistemology? Or is it that idealism has a hidden agenda (as I assume Kenny does)?
 
Everyone is ignorant until they learn so what can you teach me about mysticism? After all, we wouldn't be casting sly slurs about our fellow posters ....unless, you know, that feels better.

Touche. But I can't teach you anything about mysticism. Wasn't the topic idealism vs. materialism?
 
Rational thought.
ignorance is a fact in some areas of enquiry, do you deny it?

Some folk around here make out that such areas of enquiry are pointless, meaningless, have no value, incoherent, etc.

Maybe not being able to figure something out is just too uncomfortable.
 
I must ask then, if this rock is unreal.
It feels real. I think it would pass Dr.Johnson's kick test. If anyone thinks it is unreal, I would be happy to smack him or her over the head with it, so they can check.

Perhaps the rocks themselves were part of this " trans personal consciousness"
I have asked, but my rock stands mute.

Ironic if there wasn't actually a rock to kick and it was just a thought experiment. But no matter what, it's a comment on Dr. Johnson and his outlook rather than one about rocks and kicks.

Would you put any credence in my alternate story, where I kick a rock and my foot passes completely through? Surely one anecdote can be as evidential as another? And what are we to think if neither of us has ever kicked the moon?
 
Is Ken Ham's little gotcha really equivalent to questions about epistemology? Or is it that idealism has a hidden agenda (as I assume Kenny does)?

This isn't just an epistemology problem, this the practice of metaphysics within both materialism and idealism. If you want to discuss the metaphysics for both you have to use the evidence, and the ignorance from it does not discount one for the other. That's not how ignorance in statistics works, that's not how it works in formal logic too.

So yes when you use ignorance as a point against materialism you in no way devalue materialism, you only describe the constraints. That doesn't give idealism anything positive and when people use it like that it's effectively sour grapes.
 
This isn't just an epistemology problem, this the practice of metaphysics within both materialism and idealism. If you want to discuss the metaphysics for both you have to use the evidence, and the ignorance from it does not discount one for the other. That's not how ignorance in statistics works, that's not how it works in formal logic too.

So yes when you use ignorance as a point against materialism you in no way devalue materialism, you only describe the constraints. That doesn't give idealism anything positive and when people use it like that it's effectively sour grapes.

I don't disagree. I'm not so much pro-idealism anyhow, I'm just reacting to some of the overblown claims on the materialist side. Of course, constraining the one doesn't necessarily support the other, but I'd be happy just to constrain the one.

What is the harm in acknowledging the limits of our understandings anyhow? Is it some personal affront to do so? Maybe the true value in idealism is to show there are other ways of thinking about the topic. It doesn't have to be true to serve that useful function.
 
While reading about something else, I came across what I think underlies the discussion in this thread - not so much material/ideal as subjective/objective. It was under the topic of skepticism in general:

We can reconstruct the argument here as follows. We recognise that our initial unmodified ‘subjective' experience of the world is unreliable and therefore should be adapted along ‘objective’ lines by eliminating the ‘subjective’ element. For instance, initial appearances tell us, falsely, that straight sticks suddenly become ‘bent’ when placed in water. Accordingly, we modify our initial ‘subjective’ view with the testimony of ‘objective’ scientific investigation which tells us that the stick in fact stays straight, it is just the light that is bending. However, and here is the crux of the matter as far as Nagel is concerned, why do we regard this modified view as being any more reliable than the completely ‘subjective’ perspective that it replaces? After all, we cannot eliminate every trace of ‘subjectivity’ and thus the problematic component of our conception of reality that engendered the pursuit of objectivity in the first place remains. Consequently, we are both aware of the need for objectivity whilst also recognising that such objectivity is impossible. As a result, according to Nagel, we are condemned to the following pessimistic evaluation of our epistemic capacities:

The search for objective knowledge, because of its commitment to a realist picture, is inescapably subject to skepticism and cannot refute it but must proceed under its shadow. [...] Skepticism [...] is a problem only because of the realist claims of objectivity. (Nagel 1986, 71)

My reactions have been to a kind of epistemological insistence on the "truth" of the materialist position as an objective fact - which I don't think is supported.
 
I don't disagree. I'm not so much pro-idealism anyhow, I'm just reacting to some of the overblown claims on the materialist side. Of course, constraining the one doesn't necessarily support the other, but I'd be happy just to constrain the one.

What is the harm in acknowledging the limits of our understandings anyhow? Is it some personal affront to do so? Maybe the true value in idealism is to show there are other ways of thinking about the topic. It doesn't have to be true to serve that useful function.

FWIW idealism gets a lot of flak because it is poisonous fruit. Idealism in Bernardo's sense is Deepak Chopra's philosophy. Idealism used to come from a dualism and incredibly naive identification of consciousness. The fact that we haven't abandoned the entire concept of reality as experiential from a conscious awareness is pure deception (especially in the case of Chopra).

Now as The Man has pointed out earlier, we've come a point in our understanding where the Holographic Principle and the mathematical universe become something considerable; they are theories that are for all intents and purposes valid inasmuch as models are valid. That's what model dependent realism gets you.

It just so happens that most models of consciousness and well...the information of the universe are also physical in their principles. That's why materialists and materialism have evidence to their metaphysics. To get idealism to be supported by the same evidence it has had to adapt consciousness well beyond its neurological description (See Bernardo's arguments) to a point where it's unrecognizable. Even Koch and Tononi ran into this issue with the IIT because that model does not have to reflect physiology as its only a measure of integrated systems (which is just so happens the brain does a lot of that) this consciousness in that model isn't fully described, only measured. But for materialists that's all you need. .

So far none of that has been overblown unless we could demonstrate otherwise and unfortunately, as far as reality-as-information goes we've got a problem; math works too damned well for it. We aren't even ignorant of an abstract concept (mathematics) anymore so...while it's great to be careful about ignorance we've kinda well, have a full set. You'd have to invoke some strange Incompleteness Theorem (I've heard String Theory argued as a vague pleading to that) to describe that kind of ignorance and that's like saying "Sure that works in reality, but what about a reality it doesn't work in?". For materialists (and pretty much everyone in reality) we aren't playing a "deuces wild" card game.
 
FWIW idealism gets a lot of flak because it is poisonous fruit. Idealism in Bernardo's sense is Deepak Chopra's philosophy. Idealism used to come from a dualism and incredibly naive identification of consciousness. The fact that we haven't abandoned the entire concept of reality as experiential from a conscious awareness is pure deception (especially in the case of Chopra).

Now as The Man has pointed out earlier, we've come a point in our understanding where the Holographic Principle and the mathematical universe become something considerable; they are theories that are for all intents and purposes valid inasmuch as models are valid. That's what model dependent realism gets you.

It just so happens that most models of consciousness and well...the information of the universe are also physical in their principles. That's why materialists and materialism have evidence to their metaphysics. To get idealism to be supported by the same evidence it has had to adapt consciousness well beyond its neurological description (See Bernardo's arguments) to a point where it's unrecognizable. Even Koch and Tononi ran into this issue with the IIT because that model does not have to reflect physiology as its only a measure of integrated systems (which is just so happens the brain does a lot of that) this consciousness in that model isn't fully described, only measured. But for materialists that's all you need. .

So far none of that has been overblown unless we could demonstrate otherwise and unfortunately, as far as reality-as-information goes we've got a problem; math works too damned well for it. We aren't even ignorant of an abstract concept (mathematics) anymore so...while it's great to be careful about ignorance we've kinda well, have a full set. You'd have to invoke some strange Incompleteness Theorem (I've heard String Theory argued as a vague pleading to that) to describe that kind of ignorance and that's like saying "Sure that works in reality, but what about a reality it doesn't work in?". For materialists (and pretty much everyone in reality) we aren't playing a "deuces wild" card game.

Thanks for the honorable mention Lowpro.

As I have said before in this thread, my main argument against idealism is the evidently tenuous nature of consciousness. As part of our own experiences, and necessarily so, that tenuous nature is valid even in idealistic approaches that, well, value experience as fundamental.

The thing is both sides still lay claim to an informational universe. Perhaps even dispelling the taste of the poisonous fruit for some.

• Information ontologies, such as J. A. Wheeler's "it from bit". These approaches have been described as a revival of immaterialism[43]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interpretations_of_quantum_mechanics#Quantum_information_theories
 
The stimuli are still external to the brain so I'm not seeing any point here.
The point is an answer to your question about whether there is more to the perception of colour than, "The eye sends a signal to the brain that the brain recognizes as red because it previously learned that that signal was red"; there is, and it isn't just a 'sensor problem', it's processing that occurs in the brain.

Are you implying that all reality is some sort of Rubik's Cube?
No, that was just an example to illustrate the point.
 
The point is an answer to your question about whether there is more to the perception of colour than, "The eye sends a signal to the brain that the brain recognizes as red because it previously learned that that signal was red"; there is, and it isn't just a 'sensor problem', it's processing that occurs in the brain.


No, that was just an example to illustrate the point.

Yes and that processing is " the brain recognizes as red because it previously learned that that signal was red". Just because the brain can be mistaken in it's perceptions doesn't mean that seeing color is some strange unknown process.
 
Maybe not being able to figure something out is just too uncomfortable.
Yes, my involvement in this thread is similar to your own. With the emphasis on the tendency of materialists to assert that there is not anything else out there.

This assertion is something they cannot support and models like idealism help to illuminate this reality.
 
Thanks for the honorable mention Lowpro.

As I have said before in this thread, my main argument against idealism is the evidently tenuous nature of consciousness. As part of our own experiences, and necessarily so, that tenuous nature is valid even in idealistic approaches that, well, value experience as fundamental.
This is an artefact of the clunking, vague definition of consciousness around here. I have already pointed out that consciousness is not where it's at and consciousness is not where experience is. Its much more appropriate to refer to the being along with the experience to be in the monad. Consciousness is a metabolic body phenomena and as such is emergent from physical phenomena*. The monad is independent of physical phenomena.
The thing is both sides still lay claim to an informational universe. Perhaps even dispelling the taste of the poisonous fruit for some.
Informational is problematic, as it implies a reader(monad) of the information.


*hence all the hot air and machinations over this debate.
 

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