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I challenge you: your best argument for materialism

Who decides what properly is?
It's purely objective: The term must be defined in reference to (a) things that are objectively measurable, (b) valid mathematical theorems and expressions, and/or (c) other well-defined terms.

This is the same for all terms in all fields for everything.

And it's precisely what normative questions don't do.

You are basically saying that you decide what good and wrong is, based on how you think.
No. That's is the diametric opposite of the truth. It is not actually possible for you to be more wrong on this.
 
I did miss it. She was saying her cat uses the scientific method? What an interesting idea. I have a tree that is exploring the ground beneath it, searching for nutrients - is the tree also a scientist?

Or perhaps we have a bit of anthropomorphizing sneaking in?
Are you suggesting that trees have an epistemology?
 
Making predictions based on observations is a lot closer to the scientific method that it is to idealism. Animals certainly seem to manage perfectly well without the latter.

That's astrology, isn't it?

Here's a prediction pair from idealism: 1) I feel sleepy then 2) that causes me to sleep afterwards. In idealism, the entire chain happens as a sequence of mental events - predictable outcomes from antecedents.

I don't even think the scientific method is a friend of materialism, especially since it leads to information being created out of nothing at all and shows us violations of causality, typically an idealist point of view.

I mean, look at all the add-ons to materialism scientific inquiry demands - energy, fields, forces, dimensions... hardly a world composed of matter.
 
As long as people think the question worth raising and debating, then no, it isn't settled, at least within that group and those who choose to engage with them.

Why is this so? Because the only authority we have to appeal to is ourselves. There is no authority above our own interests and understandings. We are the ones wondering, so the "settled" bit is comment about us, not reality.

Now, suppose no one cared enough to see the movie, thinking it frank nonsense. The question generated no interest because no one thought it worth the trouble. Then you'd have a case for "settled." You could also say that among a certain group the issue was sterile and hence, settled. I expect, that in the scientific community, that's just what the response would be toward geocentrism.

But - and what an important "but" it is - the scientific community is not the sole arbiter of value in questions of epistemology. It cannot be that a scientific judgement binds all humans for all time, and without regard for other's concerns. This is especially so when an entire academic discipline (maybe two if you count religious studies) holds the question as not-yet-settled. To not acknowledge this is to just restate the claim that science, and hence materialism, is the sole arbiter of what we should take to be real - the sole way to understand the world around us. And what hubris it is to assert that bit, say the matter is settled, pack your bags and catch the next bus back home.

I hope I've made the distinction clear enough. So clear, in fact, that we can mark it down as settled, at least between us.

You are acting as if this scientific judgement was some arbitrary decision,it's not, it is a reflection of reality and its' facts are there for all to see. It's hubris to throw out all of reality because you don't like it and want it to be different.
 
That's astrology, isn't it?

Here's a prediction pair from idealism: 1) I feel sleepy then 2) that causes me to sleep afterwards. In idealism, the entire chain happens as a sequence of mental events - predictable outcomes from antecedents.

I don't even think the scientific method is a friend of materialism, especially since it leads to information being created out of nothing at all and shows us violations of causality, typically an idealist point of view.

I mean, look at all the add-ons to materialism scientific inquiry demands - energy, fields, forces, dimensions... hardly a world composed of matter.

Those are the direct result of manipulating matter.

As for dimensions I guess you will have to show me matter without dimensions.
 
Here's a prediction pair from idealism: 1) I feel sleepy then 2) that causes me to sleep afterwards.
Well, that's idealism done for then. Because that doesn't happen.

I don't even think the scientific method is a friend of materialism
That's because you have not the slightest idea what materialism means. The things you list aren't "add-ons"; they are material.
 
Agreed, I have been pointing out to PixyMisa that a fundamentally idealist universe may appear as a fully functional materialist universe and would be indistinguishable from it, if it did.

His argument is equally impotent when one realises that if we were in an idealist universe, we wouldn't have a clue what a materialist universe would be like, if it where even possible for it to exist.

If, as your first paragraph asserts, "a fully functional materialist universe" is correct, as this universe seems to be, then we certainly would "have a clue what a materialist universe would be like".

On this realisation the issue is placed clearly within the field of philosophy and is not addressed by scientific considerations, or Scientism.

Regarding the tenuous consciousness, I agree, however this is a naivety of academic philosophy, as I see it. I would replace the word consciousness with monad(or being) and adopt the Hindu brand of idealism.

Well then, how is "monad(or being" specifically less tenuous than consciousness? Is this "monad(or being" purported to be, well, conscious in the "Hindu brand of idealism"?
 
But exactly the same can be said of the material reality in our dreams. It seems entirely consistent to its own rules, everyone in the dream seems to think so and it exists entirely outside our dream avatar. But we know that it exists entirely within our own mind along with the avatar from inside which we experience the dream. Until we exit the dream it is indistinguishable from the experience we are having now. Why would it take such a leap of imagination to consider that the two states of consciousness might be similar?

Well, I can't speak for anyone else but that "entirely consistent" don't happen much in my dreams. It is just lacking the higher brain functions I don't recognize those inconsistencies or changes as anything unusual. There are often a lack of consistency and rule changes in my dreams. Everyone in my dreams seems to have equal potential to be me (the dream avatar) and I've often switched roles in dreams. Likewise the dream world itself does not seem to exist outside my dream avatar but as an integral part of it. Often conforming to or in opposition of the current inclination as that agent. It isn't "indistinguishable from the experience we are having now." because we can and do make that distinction now. At least for me it, at times, isn't "indistinguishable from the experience we are having now." while I'm in the dream state, I just don't seem care about those inconsistency or distinctions that are evident to me at that time. In fact as those higher brain function begin working again I often start to notice those inconsistencies and make that distinction that I am dreaming. Unfortunately I don't seem to be able to operate long in this mode before waking up. So why should some "take such a leap of imagination to consider that the two states of consciousness might be similar" when that is directly counter to what we have experienced?
 
This is likely a semantic thing - - to me frequency and amplitude are data points - - - information is 'that's a proton', or sales totals by region, etc.


So "sales totals by region" aren't data points? If they are then "data points" are information.
 
It's purely objective: The term must be defined in reference to (a) things that are objectively measurable, (b) valid mathematical theorems and expressions, and/or (c) other well-defined terms.

This is the same for all terms in all fields for everything.

...

(c) is thinly disguised (inter-)subjectivity and it gets worse for "all terms in all fields for everything" when we come to rights, justice and all that. That is neither objective nor math, yet you claim that you can do that for everything. It means that you claim that you can decide right and wrong for all humans.

What are you, PixyMisa? God or what?!! You claim objectivity for everything and that includes all humans. You have to explain more about this objective and well-defined terms?!!
 
(c) is thinly disguised (inter-)subjectivity and it gets worse for "all terms in all fields for everything" when we come to rights, justice and all that.
The entire problem with those fields is that the terms aren't properly defined.

That is neither objective nor math, yet you claim that you can do that for everything.
I make no such claim.

It means that you claim that you can decide right and wrong for all humans.
It means no such thing. Even if your previous statement were true - which it isn't - that would not follow.

What are you, PixyMisa? God or what?!! You claim objectivity for everything and that includes all humans.
I make no such claim.

You have to explain more about this objective and well-defined terms?!!
Why? You haven't yet come to grips with any one of my previous posts.
 
(c) is thinly disguised (inter-)subjectivity and it gets worse for "all terms in all fields for everything" when we come to rights, justice and all that. That is neither objective nor math, yet you claim that you can do that for everything. It means that you claim that you can decide right and wrong for all humans.

Opinions are not fields.
 
It's purely objective: The term must be defined in reference to (a) things that are objectively measurable, (b) valid mathematical theorems and expressions, and/or (c) other well-defined terms.

This is the same for all terms in all fields for everything.

And it's precisely what normative questions don't do.

No. That's is the diametric opposite of the truth. It is not actually possible for you to be more wrong on this.


Originally Posted by Tommy Jeppesen:
(c) is thinly disguised (inter-)subjectivity and it gets worse for "all terms in all fields for everything" when we come to rights, justice and all that.

PixyMisa:The entire problem with those fields is that the terms aren't properly defined.

Quote:
That is neither objective nor math, yet you claim that you can do that for everything.
PixyMisa: I make no such claim.

Quote:
It means that you claim that you can decide right and wrong for all humans.

PixyMisa: It means no such thing. Even if your previous statement were true - which it isn't - that would not follow.

Quote:
What are you, PixyMisa? God or what?!! You claim objectivity for everything and that includes all humans.

PixyMisa: I make no such claim.

Quote:
You have to explain more about this objective and well-defined terms?!!

PixyMisa:Why? You haven't yet come to grips with any one of my previous posts.

Okay, PixyMisa. You start with objective, all terms for all fields for everything
Again:
It's purely objective: The term must be defined in reference to (a) things that are objectively measurable, (b) valid mathematical theorems and expressions, and/or (c) other well-defined terms.

This is the same for all terms in all fields for everything.
...

Yet you don't do it objectively and for everything, because you don't claim that.
 
(c) is thinly disguised (inter-)subjectivity and it gets worse for "all terms in all fields for everything" when we come to rights, justice and all that. That is neither objective nor math, yet you claim that you can do that for everything. It means that you claim that you can decide right and wrong for all humans.

What are you, PixyMisa? God or what?!! You claim objectivity for everything and that includes all humans. You have to explain more about this objective and well-defined terms?!!

Actually I thought you were trying for that role, you seem so certain about human knowledge, you must be getting it from some god like perspective.
 
I made no such claim.

Would you please, just once, try responding to what I actually say?

It's purely objective: The term must be defined in reference to (a) things that are objectively measurable, (b) valid mathematical theorems and expressions, and/or (c) other well-defined terms.

This is the same for all terms in all fields for everything.

...

So again purely objective and everything???

Again:
It's purely objective: The term must be defined in reference to (a) things that are objectively measurable, (b) valid mathematical theorems and expressions, and/or (c) other well-defined terms.

This is the same for all terms in all fields for everything.

Or is it that everything is not everything???

Or that your use of and/or means there are well-defined terms, which are not objectively measurable and not valid mathematical theorems and expressions?
 

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