I challenge you: your best alternate to materialism

[doronshadmi]

Obviously, yes. The simple act of contemplating Darth Vader means that he exists in the neurochemical interactions in your brain, or mine or anyone elses.

This is only the preliminary stage. As we have learned over the history, these neurochemical interactions can shape reality for better or worse, beyond their existence in someone's brain.

You are proposing that politics does not materially affect your existence. Oh, what fun.

I proposing that politics materially (beyond the borders of brains) and mentally (within the borders of brains) affect your existence, or in other words, you totally have missed my argument.

 

[doronshadmi]

True, it's no fun preaching to an empty choir.

I preaching to no one.

An empty choir is a ridiculous name for maybe the longest tread in this forum.

 

[punshhh]

Yes, that is correct.

Hans

Yes and in each instance of "I prefer country to classical", the atomic configuration is different, even when it occurs in the same brain?

 

[punshhh]

Isn't that the same thing ? The body's response IS the material doing things.

My point is that the only route to accessing the information "I prefer country music to classical" is via the social, cultural subjective route of the person. Any scientific analysis of that body in ignorance of this subjective personal information would never determine the preference in music, as in each instance of the sentiment, the atomic configuration in the brain sustaining the being of that person is unique and un-referenced to any particular sentiment.

Yes, and we will.

How can you be so confident. It is equivalent to analysing a television from any other perspective than that of a human who regularly watches one. To then determine the programme being shown, or the information conveyed in the programme. It would require questioning of the human of what they experience when watching the screen. There can be no other way, because the presence and experience of the viewer is integral to any understanding of the subjective content.

 

[tsig]

I preaching to no one. An empty choir is a ridiculous name for maybe the longest tread in this forum.

I agree but not like you think.



A train engine can pull more empty cars than full ones.

 

[doronshadmi]

Wrong. You are completely wrong. Like a map isn't the territory and a picture isn't the thing you took a picture of, a thought about something doesn't imply that the thing has existence beyond the thought (neurological process) itself

The existence of maps, pictures and Darth Vader is derived from thoughts, and the impact of thoughts on reality depend on their abilities to manipulate reality right from its substance.

So deeper the thoughts are known, stronger their impact on the reality beyond the borders of the brain, is fulfilled.

The deepest state of mental activity is actually the simplest unbounded and non-composed invariant state of any possible phenomenon, whether it appears as a process in some brain, the structure of this brain or the entire phenomena outside this brain.

This deepest state of mental activity is exactly Unity consciousness that is unbounded by any of its bounded expressions, whether they are called material or spiritual, it does not matter.

As long as your mind gets itself only as one the bounded expressions (you call these bounded expressions material, and another person call them spiritual, but it does not really matter) it has no chance to really know the substance of reality and transform force=violence into force=harmony among the the bounded expressions.

 

[doronshadmi]

A train engine can pull more empty cars than full ones.

It is full of posters, so your analogy does not hold.

 

[Myriad]

My point is that the only route to accessing the information "I prefer country music to classical" is via the social, cultural subjective route of the person. Any scientific analysis of that body in ignorance of this subjective personal information would never determine the preference in music, as in each instance of the sentiment, the atomic configuration in the brain sustaining the being of that person is unique and un-referenced to any particular sentiment.

Well, no. Sure, the social/cultural/subjective route is the only practical way, at present, to find out whether someone prefers country music to classical. Doing it via brain scans is more an abstract theoretical concept.

I could liken it to finding out "are you currently behind in any loan payments?" by starting with a complete copy of all of the raw paper and computer data of all the world's banks, and sifting through them. In principle you could do it, but it would be a task so monumentally difficult as to be practically impossible. That's what it would be like using a "brain scanner" to determine someone's music preferences. But instead, we can use established tools and channels, the way credit rating agencies do, to query the information in a structured way. That's like asking the person about their music preferences.

But, that doesn't begin to suggest that there's anything non-material about a person's financial status. If all the paper and digital records of a debt were all destroyed, the debt would no longer exist. It would not live on as any sort of nonmaterial debt-spirit. It doesn't make the debt, or a person's musical tastes, some mysterious ineffable non-material entity, any more than the plaid on a fabric is beyond comprehension even though no single thread contains it.

 

[doronshadmi]

Well, no. Sure, the social/cultural/subjective route is the only practical way, at present, to find out whether someone prefers country music to classical. Doing it via brain scans is more an abstract theoretical concept.

I could liken it to finding out "are you currently behind in any loan payments?" by starting with a complete copy of all of the raw paper and computer data of all the world's banks, and sifting through them. In principle you could do it, but it would be a task so monumentally difficult as to be practically impossible. That's what it would be like using a "brain scanner" to determine someone's music preferences. But instead, we can use established tools and channels, the way credit rating agencies do, to query the information in a structured way. That's like asking the person about their music preferences.

But, that doesn't begin to suggest that there's anything non-material about a person's financial status. If all the paper and digital records of a debt were all destroyed, the debt would no longer exist. It would not live on as any sort of nonmaterial debt-spirit. It doesn't make the debt, or a person's musical tastes, some mysterious ineffable non-material entity, any more than the plaid on a fabric is beyond comprehension even though no single thread contains it.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10390201&postcount=706.

Since all materiel or spiritual phenomena are bounded, composed and changeable, they can't be considered as the actual substance of themselves, because the actual substance is unbounded, non-composed and invariant.

In these media the substance can be discussed only in terms of analogy, as given, for example in http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10377509&postcount=566 and http://www.sciencechatforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=27823&p=269245#p269301.

Any scientific research that is done only at the level of the bounded, composed and changeable, can't include the actual substance of reality, and therefore fails to transom force=violence into force=harmony among the bounded, composed and changeable phenomena.

More details are given in http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10336151&postcount=170 and http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10336522&postcount=173.

Dear Myriad, today we already have force=violence in terms of Hydrogen bombs, mass destruction chemical and biological weapons, that are the direct results of bounded, composed and changeable (mentally unstable) processes in scientists' and politicians' brains.

The next weapon of these bounded, composed and changeable (mentally unstable) processes in scientists and politicians brains, is going to be anti-matter bombs, where 100% of matter and anti-matter are transformed into energy within less than a micro-second, and the result is "bye bye planet Earth".

As long as I am alive I air my view of this activity that is leaded by bounded, composed and changeable (mentally unstable) processes in scientists' (and now also terrorists and criminals without any particular country) and politicians' brains into self-made destruction of our home planet.

The prevention of mass destruction can be done if the actual substance of reality, which is unbounded, non-composed and invariant, becomes the actual awareness (Unity consciousness) of scientists and politicians, and naturally enables to transform force=violence into force=harmony among the bounded, composed and changeable phenomena, simply because the actual unbounded, non-composed and invariant substance naturally does not destroy its own creative expressions, like any healthy organism.

 

[Belz...]

Maps, pictures, or puppets of Darth Vader are some material forms that are done by neurological process

Yes, but just thinking about Vader doesn't produce puppets of him, does it ?

We have learned that this neurological process, is not limited to maps, pictures, or puppets but actually enables to shape the territory itself by manipulating more and more stronger forces of nature

Not directly, it doesn't.

so dear Belz... thoughts about something definitely have existence beyond the neurological process itself, and maps, pictures, or puppets are some preliminary stages for more and more stronger material impact on reality's shape.

Again, thinking about something does not make that thing exist.

So dear Belz... how force=violence is transformed into force=harmony by your material-only substance, and what is the impact of thoughts on this trarnsformation ?

Off-topic.

You are the one that claim that reality is material-only, so nothing can be excluded from being material, including Politics.

Off-topic.

So do you claim now that your material-only reality is insane?

No, your claims are insane. It seems you are utterly unable to understand anything that people tell you.

 

[Belz...]

My point is that the only route to accessing the information "I prefer country music to classical" is via the social, cultural subjective route of the person.

We've already been through this: no it isn't. A machine that can read your brain could do this objectively.

How can you be so confident.

Because we always do. And we already understand much about thoughts. Much more than you want to admit.

Did you read my other points ?

 

[Belz...]

The existence of maps, pictures and Darth Vader is derived from thoughts, and the impact of thoughts on reality depend on their abilities to manipulate reality right from its substance.

So deeper the thoughts are known, stronger their impact on the reality beyond the borders of the brain, is fulfilled.

The deepest state of mental activity is actually the simplest unbounded and non-composed invariant state of any possible phenomenon, whether it appears as a process in some brain, the structure of this brain or the entire phenomena outside this brain.

This deepest state of mental activity is exactly Unity consciousness that is unbounded by any of its bounded expressions, whether they are called material or spiritual, it does not matter.

As long as your mind gets itself only as one the bounded expressions (you call these bounded expressions material, and another person call them spiritual, but it does not really matter) it has no chance to really know the substance of reality and transform force=violence into force=harmony among the the bounded expressions.

Word salad, again. I still don't know what you mean by "bounded".

 

[turingtest]

Word salad, again. I still don't know what you mean by "bounded".

When pressed, neither does Doron. "Bounded" is defined only in terms of its opposition to "unbounded," and vice-versa- neither term has any definition independent of the other. It's like the opposition between black and white- "black" is the absence of all colors, and "white" is the combination of all colors. For Doron, there would be nothing in between- no colors, absolutes only.

And, somehow, if only politicians, scientists, terrorists, etc., would realize his all-embracing "truth," there would be peace and harmony among all mankind- luh-uv would steer the stars! and all that.

 

[Myriad]

Since all materiel or spiritual phenomena are bounded, composed and changeable,

Who says? How do you know?

... because the actual substance is unbounded, non-composed and invariant.

Who says? How do you know?

The prevention of mass destruction can be done if the actual substance of reality, which is unbounded, non-composed and invariant, becomes the actual awareness (Unity consciousness) of scientists and politicians, and naturally enables to transform force=violence into force=harmony among the bounded, composed and changeable phenomena, simply because the actual unbounded, non-composed and invariant substance naturally does not destroy its own creative expressions, like any healthy organism.

If that's so, you'll need a better plan than that to prevent mass destruction. Plans that amount to, "everything will be okay once we change some aspect of basic human nature" are useless. They've been useless for thousands of years. They've been useless for civilization after civilization, great religion after great religion, social regime after social regime. The kingdoms of heaven on earth, the collectivist utopias, the harmonic convergences, the great awakenings, the sixfold, sevenfold, eightfold, howevermanyfold paths, the Golden Dawn, the Shining Path, the City on the Hill, the Rapture, the New Age, the Singularity, all so much rubbish.

Even if there is such a thing as "unity consciousness" and you eventually mange to explain what that is and how to achieve it, the world will still be the world, people will still be people, and weapons will still kill. If you want to fix the world, you'd be just as well off wishing upon a star. At least stars actually exist.

If you know a better way for individuals to live, then show how it works for individuals. Show us how "unity consciousness" has helped you solve the problems you've encountered in your own life. When you're waiting outdoors in cold rain for a bus that's an hour late, does unity consciousness make it easier? When your wife and your mother ask you to arbitrate a dispute between them, how does unity consciousness help you or them? When your crops fail and your children are hungry and your wife has a cough that won't go away, what does unity consciousness do for you?

 

[doronshadmi]

Not directly, it doesn't.

I am not talking about directly, at this preliminary stage. But also indirectly our thoughts have an impact beyond the bounds of their brain, it all depends on how deeper are your thoughts, where the deepest state is Unity consciousness.

 

[doronshadmi]

Who says? How do you know?

Who says? How do you know?

The simplest state of existence is the natural substance of any possible non-simplest existence, where the non-simplest is exactly the bounded, composed and changeable.

Current science works only at the non-simplest levels of existence, and it is about time to include the simplest state of existence as the substance of scientific research.

It can't be done if scientists exclude themselves as factors of theirs scientific research, because the simplest state of existence is actually known by being aware of finer mantel activities until one is directly aware of the simplest state of existence, which is the substance that is unbounded by space\time phenomena.

More one enables to be aware of the simplest state of existence during space\time phenomena, more harmony appears among space\time phenomena.

If that's so, you'll need a better plan than that to prevent mass destruction. Plans that amount to, "everything will be okay once we change some aspect of basic human nature" are useless. They've been useless for thousands of years. They've been useless for civilization after civilization, great religion after great religion, social regime after social regime. The kingdoms of heaven on earth, the collectivist utopias, the harmonic convergences, the great awakenings, the sixfold, sevenfold, eightfold, howevermanyfold paths, the Golden Dawn, the Shining Path, the City on the Hill, the Rapture, the New Age, the Singularity, all so much rubbish.

Even if there is such a thing as "unity consciousness" and you eventually mange to explain what that is and how to achieve it, the world will still be the world, people will still be people, and weapons will still kill. If you want to fix the world, you'd be just as well off wishing upon a star. At least stars actually exist.

If you know a better way for individuals to live, then show how it works for individuals. Show us how "unity consciousness" has helped you solve the problems you've encountered in your own life. When you're waiting outdoors in cold rain for a bus that's an hour late, does unity consciousness make it easier? When your wife and your mother ask you to arbitrate a dispute between them, how does unity consciousness help you or them? When your crops fail and your children are hungry and your wife has a cough that won't go away, what does unity consciousness do for you?

If more brains directly become aware of the simplest state of existence and enable to keep it during their daily life, reality is naturally developed into space\time harmoniums phenomena.

 

[punshhh]

Well, no. Sure, the social/cultural/subjective route is the only practical way, at present, to find out whether someone prefers country music to classical. Doing it via brain scans is more an abstract theoretical concept.

I could liken it to finding out "are you currently behind in any loan payments?" by starting with a complete copy of all of the raw paper and computer data of all the world's banks, and sifting through them. In principle you could do it, but it would be a task so monumentally difficult as to be practically impossible. That's what it would be like using a "brain scanner" to determine someone's music preferences. But instead, we can use established tools and channels, the way credit rating agencies do, to query the information in a structured way. That's like asking the person about their music preferences.

But, that doesn't begin to suggest that there's anything non-material about a person's financial status. If all the paper and digital records of a debt were all destroyed, the debt would no longer exist. It would not live on as any sort of nonmaterial debt-spirit. It doesn't make the debt, or a person's musical tastes, some mysterious ineffable non-material entity, any more than the plaid on a fabric is beyond comprehension even though no single thread contains it.

Yes I agree with you analogy up to a point. My point is that there is no consistent atomic configuration for "I prefer country music", as it is unique in each instance of the sentiment. Also to follow analogy, the "debt" is not recorded on paper, as it would be in the analogy. If it were, there would be a chemical formula for "I prefer country music" and there clearly isn't.

So there is something emergent or effervescent beyond the atomic and chemical activity of the brain resulting in the subjective phenomena of the sentiment, its informational content and the social content. This is what we refer to as a sentient being.

 

[punshhh]

We've already been through this: no it isn't. A machine that can read your brain could do this objectively.

My point is that it could not. See my post to myriad before this one.

Because we always do. And we already understand much about thoughts. Much more than you want to admit.

Perhaps you are not treating subjective phenomena as an emergent property.

Did you read my other points ?

Sorry I am short of time, I am happy to continue on the other points next week, when I have more time.

 

[doronshadmi]

When pressed, neither does Doron. "Bounded" is defined only in terms of its opposition to "unbounded," and vice-versa- neither term has any definition independent of the other. It's like the opposition between black and white- "black" is the absence of all colors, and "white" is the combination of all colors. For Doron, there would be nothing in between- no colors, absolutes only.

The substance of reality is simpler than any of its expressions. You try to explain the simplest state of existence in terms of multiplicity by forgetting once again http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10383108&postcount=654, http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10383140&postcount=655 and http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10383153&postcount=656.

As for your "nothing in between-" argument, please look very carefully at this analogy (http://www.sciencechatforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=27823&p=269245#p269007), where again, any analogy is done only in terms of multiplicity, which is not the simpler state of existence.

 

[Belz...]

I am not talking about directly, at this preliminary stage.

At this stage you're not talking about anything.

But also indirectly our thoughts have an impact beyond the bounds of their brain, it all depends on how deeper are your thoughts, where the deepest state is Unity consciousness.

No, it all depends on what you do about your thoughts. Think about building a house ? Won't build itself, but you can build it if you want to, which is what I'm talking about. You have no evidence that thoughts have a direct effect on anything else than the brain itself.