• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

I can has rant now?

Rolfe

Adult human female
Joined
Sep 11, 2003
Messages
53,752
Location
NT 150 511
Thursday, I have to cover for someone at a VI centre where I don't normally work. I show up about half an hour late, to see a farmer offloading a couple of dead hens. I swear a bit because I hate hens, and where I normally work we usually manage to offload them because DEFRA has some real hen experts nearby.

I smile sweetly and invite him to tell me all about it. These are commercial laying hens, from a large group. 4,000 hens altogether, and there are (or rather were) 2,000 in this group alone. That is quite a lot of chookies.

He tells me that the hens are laying very well indeed, but they are in poor condition, and unexpectedly large numbers have died in the previous two weeks. He shows me the statistics, and the number of deaths would give Hugh F-W heart failure. This is Stalag Hen sort of mortality rates.

I request fuller and better information, and am told that in fact the poor condition is "just the feathers". Body condition is OK. "Well, they're like dairy cows I suppose, they're producing at an elite rate so they're lean." There is some mention that the hens are pecking each other.

Then (proudly): "They're organic and free range."

Great.

I work my way on down the list of questions. Have the hens been receiving any medication? I surmise that the answer will be no, if they're organic. Oh, but yes, they get a homoeopathic medication.

I write down, "NO". I then remark, "that doesn't count, there's nothing in homoeopathic medicines." I don't know if he took that in or not. I offer my best service to find out what's killing his bloody hens, and say bye-bye.

Then a colleague phones with some question about one of yesterday's cases back at the ranch. I tell her I'm stuck with some hens. I then mention the "organic" bit. She remarks, "well, that'll be easy, they'll have something really obvious." Because, frankly, organic animals almost always have something obvious. Something other animals get routine preventative treatment for, which is forbidden under these monstrous "organic" rules.

Finally (it was a busy day) I get round to looking at the hens. Oh my freaking sainted aunt! They've got some wing feathers, but that's about it. Otherwise, they're virtually bald. What feathers they have are plastered with mud. I've never seen such gruesome specimens in my life, not even the rejects from battery cages. They're not emaciated, I agree, but they're pretty thin.

I start looking for skin parasites, but find nothing. The skin is relatively normal, just with broken feather shafts sticking out all over. But the real sick-making thing is that the vents have been pecked at so that the abdominal cavities have been entered in both birds. Closer inspection reveals that most of the intestines are missing - the birds have been disembowelled. Oviducts have also been sliced open.

Even closer inspection reveals feathers in the gizzards of the dead birds. The injuries are typical cannibalism.

This is a really horrible consequence of very very bad environment in poultry farming. It brings a whole new dimension to the term "pecking order". The birds attack each other, pull each other's feathers out, and eventually peck each other round the vent severely enough to kill.

I repeat, the cause is managemental. It is bad environment. It is really bad environment.

These birds were "organic free range". They were producing eggs. People are buying these eggs, imagining happy chickies contentedly pecking round an idyllic farmyard somewhere. And that being organic means they don't get treated with nasty evil chemicals.

No. No chemicals. Just homoeopathy. And although I haven't seen the environment, I know enough to be absolutely certain that it's appalling. It takes quite a bit to stress hens to the point where they kill each other like that. And they don't much like mud either, and there was a lot of that.

But never mind. They're free range! That means there are no cage partitions to protect them from their sisters when the stress drives them to attack each other. And they're organic! So they get nice kind gentle homoeopathic medication, and nothing else.

Well, this one can be somebody else's problem. But it's not a disease problem, it's an animal welfare problem. Caused by dreadful environmental conditions, in a management system that is marketed as high welfare. 4,000 hens, remember? Well, if enough knit-your-own-sandals yummie mummies insist on buying organic, then you need big units, stands to reason.

OK, the homoeopathy was probably the least of the problems here. It's just that in veterinary circles, homoeopathy seems to go hand in hand with lots of other ideological baggage, the organic bat-crap craze[iness] being a prime example.

OK, shutting up now. Probably being indiscreet. But sometimes I just think, if these innocents who declare that they're buying organic on animal welfare grounds, or because it's the best thing for precious little Phyllida's health, could see what their produce is actually coming from, they might think twice.

Rolfe.
 
Last edited:
Several references, but no explanation at what that "homeopathy" involved.
That would be one of my first questions.
"What exactly is that"?
 
Well it has had one positive outcome.

You have stopped me feeling guilty that I don't usually buy free range eggs.

Remember that free range and organic have different and specific meanings.

Neither of them guarantees that the chickens involved live happy peaceful lives, but it's only the "organic" label that makes it more likely they'll be lacking essential medicine.
 
Horror story Rolfe - however - as with any business practice group there are ethical owners and pirates.....

Be it organic or drug laden......you can't legislate common sense or a set of ethics.....it may well show that oversight is sadly lacking in both systems.
 
FWIW, all the organic sheep & beef, pork, and poultry farms that I got to see in the course of my field work in New Zealand were exactly what one would have hoped them to be - healthy animals in a well-kept environment, with lower stocking rates than on conventional farms, no imported feed, and outstanding soil quality. I assume your national mileage may vary.

Though at least two of those were stricken with a heavy case of the homeopathies as well, interestingly for their horses only. The other livestock was treated as advised in the certification guidelines, i.e. with conventional medication if necessary.
 
That's interesting. While I'm certain neglectful, homeopathy-using farmers exist in the US, the rules on what can be labeled organic are quite a bit looser. Certain medications are allowed, for example. And "free range" down here doesn't mean the stock is uncaged all the time, just that they don't live their whole lives indoors.
 
Does this guy not realize that his birds are eating each other? What actions or inspections will now be taken?
 
There isn't any way that you, as a veterinary professional-type person, can turn him in or something for animal abuse? If the hens are as stressed and poorly cared for as you say, seems like you'd have a case for some kind of official action.
 
Sounds like he's trying to raise his chickens as vegetarians. Their only source of high quality protein seems to be each other. I tried raising mice once with a similar outcome.

Meat- it's what's for dinner! (as in feeding to dinner!)
 
Sounds like he's trying to raise his chickens as vegetarians. Their only source of high quality protein seems to be each other. I tried raising mice once with a similar outcome.

Meat- it's what's for dinner! (as in feeding to dinner!)

I can't express how squicky I find the story and you're NOT HELPING.

Rolfe, what's going to happen to these chickens now? Euthanasia? Transfer to a farm that has some ethics?
 
Well, it really becomes somebody else's problem, because I was only filling in for a day. And in fact it's really the farmer's own vet's problem unless he decides to call us in for advice. And if he does that, they'll send a proper poultry expert. But probably, there will be a farm visit, someone will assess what's wrong with the environment to cause such a problem, and the farmer will be advised what to do to fix it.

I don't imagine he's doing this on purpose. He doesn't want his hens dying either. But it's a pretty poor show that something as bad as this is capable of happening within a set of rules that markets itself as welfare-friendly.

Oh yes, I have seen "organic" animals that were normally healthy and well-grown. From time to time. But in general they're poor, undersized, parasite-ridden things. We see a lot of animals that have died of all sorts of things. It's the organic ones that stand out as being poor. Nobody in our department will touch organic meat, eggs or dairy produce.

Rolfe.
 
I've often been tempted to place discreet stickers on the appropriate shelves/coolers at the supermarket that say, "Organic = 19th century sanitation".

So far, I've resisted temptation. So far.
 
I've often been tempted to place discreet stickers on the appropriate shelves/coolers at the supermarket that say, "Organic = 19th century sanitation".

So far, I've resisted temptation. So far.

19th century sanitation wasn't too bad. The London sewerage system built in the 19th century was pretty good.
 
I used to sell a lot of Eggs ( only free range) At a rough guess 6500 per day. To ensure that the hens were kept in good conditions I made unannounced visits to the farm( 3/4 times a year) that supplied me direct. If I didn't like what I saw I would drop them as a supplier. Fortunately this never happened. All retailers should do the same Its their responsibility on behalf of their customers, themselves and the Hens.
 
Last edited:
Does this guy not realize that his birds are eating each other? What actions or inspections will now be taken?

Well, it really becomes somebody else's problem, because I was only filling in for a day. And in fact it's really the farmer's own vet's problem unless he decides to call us in for advice. And if he does that, they'll send a proper poultry expert. But probably, there will be a farm visit, someone will assess what's wrong with the environment to cause such a problem, and the farmer will be advised what to do to fix it.

I don't imagine he's doing this on purpose. He doesn't want his hens dying either. But it's a pretty poor show that something as bad as this is capable of happening within a set of rules that markets itself as welfare-friendly.

Oh yes, I have seen "organic" animals that were normally healthy and well-grown. From time to time. But in general they're poor, undersized, parasite-ridden things. We see a lot of animals that have died of all sorts of things. It's the organic ones that stand out as being poor. Nobody in our department will touch organic meat, eggs or dairy produce.

Rolfe.



Wow. This is an eye-opener. I'm naive about this stuff. I live in the Boston area. We shop at Whole Foods, because it seems less gross overall than Stop and Shop. Are there any rules of thumb I should observe about what I buy? (I don't expect to become expert in this subject.) Given the choice, should I avoid the organic produce there? Is free-range generally a scam, or was it only in this case?
 
But in general they're poor, undersized, parasite-ridden things.

I have a vague memory of having asked you or someone else here before, but in case I didn't:

When you find parasites on domestic fowl, would it be possible for you to send them to me? I work with bird lice, and hens and their relatives have several very curious ones that belong to the family Goniodidae (also found on doves and pigeons). I have been meaning to get in touch with vets in my own country, but I never seem to actually do it, and I would very much like to have some Goniodids from all over the world for my collection. I have some from Japanese pheasants and quails, but none from European birds, or domestic birds.
 
OK, the homoeopathy was probably the least of the problems here. It's just that in veterinary circles, homoeopathy seems to go hand in hand with lots of other ideological baggage, the organic bat-crap craze[iness] being a prime example.


Rolfe.

personally i think it's a good thing to avoid pesticides whenever possible. you obviously don't.


meow
 
Thank you for the OP, Rolfe. I was starting to develop a sincere and pretty strong skepticism for things 'organic' and 'natural' already, and your OP did nothing to stop this development.

personally i think it's a good thing to avoid pesticides whenever possible.
Define 'whenever possible'.
 

Back
Top Bottom