hypnosis-real science or woo?

[JWideman]

My late grandmother tried hypnosis to quit smoking. She went for "treatments" regularly. She didn't quit until nearly 20 years later, when she was put on oxygen.
My anecdotal evidence negates your anecdotal evidence.

 

[JonWhite]

My late grandmother tried hypnosis to quit smoking. She went for "treatments" regularly. She didn't quit until nearly 20 years later, when she was put on oxygen.

Another great result courtesy of a standard hypnotherapeutic smoking cessation procedure.

Install a powerful, post-hypnotic suggestion linking quitting smoking to the act of being put on oxygen. And still successful too, even after twenty years!

Goes to show, don't under-estimate the power of hypnosis.

 

[robinson]

Another great result courtesy of a standard hypnotherapeutic smoking cessation procedure.

Anecdotes are the best evidence!

 

[zas]

I'm curious about people who perform "hypnotism" or have seen it on stage . . .

Well, I guess I'm more curious to the the reaction people have to them. Are there sometimes people who don't play along? How do you select a volunteer? Body language?

I saw a video of a hypnotist who performed around here . . . He got a girl to admit to her celebrity crush and told her a broom was her crush and got her to dance with it on stage.

I really hate admitting secrets and I can't dance and the idea of attempting dancing is embarrassing. I think I might rather get punched in the face a few times then dance on stage . . .

So how do you know you're not going to end up with someone like me on stage?


And I guess I wonder, if it seems to me it's mainly suggestibility, would that help me be "immune" to it in a way?

Would a professional hypnotist ever want to perform to an audience of self-proclaimed skeptics?


Some part of me watches Derren Brown and gets sort of afraid because, though he seems like a good guy, can't people go around manipulating others just as well? It kinda makes me afraid of mentalists/hypnotists/magicians- People good with messing with human expectations, etc. Some part of me wants to learn all the tricks so I don't get tricked.

 

[simonmaal]

Why is it that when a controversial subject like homesex...er homeopathy, herbalist, chiropracter, osteopath, hypnosis, iridology ect. ,it's always ''the test were not conclusive or large enough to reach any conclusion''? Could it possibly be that there's very little benefit in any of it or none at all?

I'm quite gobsmacked at this puerile and silly reply (after I spent so long providing a sceptical explanation of the subject over several posts, as well as providing numerous references for your perusal).

Why is it that some people's prejudices prevent them from reading a post properly? You are either a troll or incapable of reading a post right through in context.

 

[simonmaal]

My late grandmother tried hypnosis to quit smoking. She went for "treatments" regularly. She didn't quit until nearly 20 years later, when she was put on oxygen.
My anecdotal evidence negates your anecdotal evidence.

Absolutely. Hence my conclusion that there is no real evidence to support the effectiveness of hypnotherapy for smoking cessation (unless we want to argue that a placebo is an effective and ethical intervention; maybe we can save that debate for another thread so as not to derail this one). I would also add that there is no evidence for its efficacy in weight loss therapy.

So the two areas that are most commonly associated with hypnotherapy (weight loss and smoking) are in fact unproven. However, I did provide a number of references to other studies where hypnotherapy was indeed effective (IBS being the main one). More research is definitely required to sort the "wheat" from the "chaff".

 

[simonmaal]

Some people can compartmentalize pain in their mind and endure great pain while calling it hypnosis. If the name hypnosis was never coined they might still be able to bear that pain.

Agreed. In this instance, maybe the terms "hypnosis" and "placebo" are interchangeable. And most hypnosis researchers would argue that "hypnotic" phenomena are the result of social influence and personal abilities, not from some special "trance" like state (see Kirsch & Lynn, 1995).

But the definition is a difficult one because Liossi and Hatira (1999) found that both hypnotherapeutic and cognitive behavioural interventions were effective in preparing patients for cancer treatment, with hypnosis being superior in minimizing anxiety and behavioural distress. We could therefore conclude that there is a psychological element involved in pain (perhaps emotional). If this conclusion were to hold then all of a sudden, hypnosis sounds rather less mysterious than some people would have us believe! It is simply a technique used to train the mind, nothing more!

Even more interesting is Derren Brown's claim that internal organs are not as sensitive as other parts of the body, hence the success of "hypno-surgery" is more to do with the fact that the pain is not really as intense as we we would think. So the combination of placebo and "lack of pain in the first place" could go a long way to producing the effect. Maybe somebody could confirm if Brown is on the right track with this?

It's a topic I used to have great interest in and decided it is all about suggestion -- but don't ask me to define it past that because no one can.

I don't know, I think I've had a damn good go at it in my earlier posts! As I keep saying, more research is required!

 

[simonmaal]

Some part of me watches Derren Brown and gets sort of afraid because, though he seems like a good guy, can't people go around manipulating others just as well? It kinda makes me afraid of mentalists/hypnotists/magicians- People good with messing with human expectations, etc. Some part of me wants to learn all the tricks so I don't get tricked.

Allow me to provide the information you require! The following link leads to a video of Brown playing his mind games and with it is an explanation by me (which seems to have been blasted round the internet):

http://www.mercabusca.com/-DylNVUN_3I.html

Should go some way towards providing the explanation you seek. Enjoy!

 

[amb]

I'm quite gobsmacked at this puerile and silly reply (after I spent so long providing a sceptical explanation of the subject over several posts, as well as providing numerous references for your perusal).

Why is it that some people's prejudices prevent them from reading a post properly? You are either a troll or incapable of reading a post right through in context.

Take it easy man. I was agreeing with your post. You misread it as refering to your post. I was reffering to the many excuses those mostly, charlatans use as an excuse when tests ridicule them as frauds.

 

[Big Les]

I think it should be pretty clear from this thread alone that they can't make you do anything you don't want to do. No more than say, peer pressure in front of an audience can. They're facilitators that try to get people to explore less obvious aspects of themselves, nothing more.

[eta - sorry, left this reply sitting there on my desktop for a while]

 

[simonmaal]

Take it easy man. I was agreeing with your post. You misread it as refering to your post. I was reffering to the many excuses those mostly, charlatans use as an excuse when tests ridicule them as frauds.

Ah then please accept my sincere apology! I thought you were interpreting my post as being in support of unproven interventions: let's put it down to pre-Christmas adrenaline

And yes people do try to "cook the books" in the face of evidence. Many of the alt crowd like to move the goalposts. As an aside, a study (don't have the reference for once but can slap it on here if anybody wants to follow it up) found iridology to be particularly dangerous insofar as its use as a diagnostic tool distracts people from proper medical care.

But not all hypnosis is nonsense, we just need to sort the rubbish from the good. A lot of hypnosis belongs alongside iridology et al but some belongs alongside cognitive-behavioural therapy et al.

 

[JFrankA]

I'm curious about people who perform "hypnotism" or have seen it on stage . . .

Well, I guess I'm more curious to the the reaction people have to them. Are there sometimes people who don't play along? How do you select a volunteer? Body language?

I saw a video of a hypnotist who performed around here . . . He got a girl to admit to her celebrity crush and told her a broom was her crush and got her to dance with it on stage.

I really hate admitting secrets and I can't dance and the idea of attempting dancing is embarrassing. I think I might rather get punched in the face a few times then dance on stage . . .

So how do you know you're not going to end up with someone like me on stage?


And I guess I wonder, if it seems to me it's mainly suggestibility, would that help me be "immune" to it in a way?

Would a professional hypnotist ever want to perform to an audience of self-proclaimed skeptics?


Some part of me watches Derren Brown and gets sort of afraid because, though he seems like a good guy, can't people go around manipulating others just as well? It kinda makes me afraid of mentalists/hypnotists/magicians- People good with messing with human expectations, etc. Some part of me wants to learn all the tricks so I don't get tricked.

I do stage hypnosis, and yes, I am a skeptic.

Honestly, picking someone is very easy. The people you choose, first of all, voluenteer to do it.

Once they are on stage, (this is how I do it), I start the induction process, the people who seem to be more responsive to the suggestions I give, (and yes, this is purely subjective on my part, nothing really scientific so I have been wrong), I keep onstage. The others, I let them sit back in the audience.

Now my shows are R rated to X rated, so I automatically have an audience of people who are open to do some outrageous things. So that if, on the off chance, I do hit on something someone definately would not do, they either just come out of it or just simply refuse.

Now when that happens, I don't make a big deal of it. I allow the person to sit back down on the stage (if they didn't 'come out of it') or let them go back to their seat in the audience (if they did). The show goes on.

As to you being "immune in some way", yes it does. If you know the tricks, you know what might be coming and be prepared for it. However, as I said, this is nothing magical. It's simply taking advantage of someone's concentration, imagination and suggestablity. You can still 'go under a trance' even if you are prepared for it.

As to what Derren Brown does, he is being incredibly honest as a performer. I suggest you get his book "Tricks of the Mind". He explains more beautifully what I've been trying to explain and he explains it completely without woo. (He is a BIG BIG skeptic).

He is an accomplished magician and his true genius is being able to take regular card tricks and slieghts, mix them with pyschological tricks and come up the stuff he performs.

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

I do stage hypnosis, and yes, I am a skeptic.

Honestly, picking someone is very easy. The people you choose, first of all, voluenteer to do it.

Once they are on stage, (this is how I do it), I start the induction process, the people who seem to be more responsive to the suggestions I give, (and yes, this is purely subjective on my part, nothing really scientific so I have been wrong), I keep onstage. The others, I let them sit back in the audience.

Now my shows are R rated to X rated, so I automatically have an audience of people who are open to do some outrageous things. So that if, on the off chance, I do hit on something someone definately would not do, they either just come out of it or just simply refuse.

Now when that happens, I don't make a big deal of it. I allow the person to sit back down on the stage (if they didn't 'come out of it') or let them go back to their seat in the audience (if they did). The show goes on.

As to you being "immune in some way", yes it does. If you know the tricks, you know what might be coming and be prepared for it. However, as I said, this is nothing magical. It's simply taking advantage of someone's concentration, imagination and suggestablity. You can still 'go under a trance' even if you are prepared for it.

As to what Derren Brown does, he is being incredibly honest as a performer. I suggest you get his book "Tricks of the Mind". He explains more beautifully what I've been trying to explain and he explains it completely without woo. (He is a BIG BIG skeptic).

He is an accomplished magician and his true genius is being able to take regular card tricks and slieghts, mix them with pyschological tricks and come up the stuff he performs.

I do a comedy juggling show, and I have volunteers from the audience do all sorts of very strange, silly, and sometimes apparently dangerous things on stage. All I do is ask for volunteers and tell them what to do. Sorry "induction" is just a bit of play acting.

In over 20 years (thousands of shows), I'll be there've been a total of maybe a dozen people who refused to do what I ask them. There have been thousands of volunteers who did the things I asked them to because there is an expectation based on the situation 1) that I won't hurt them and 2) that it's all in fun.

Granted, the compliance I get in my act doesn't prove that you're not doing what you say you are, but if you're actually "inducing" people into some sort of state that they need to "come out of," you're doing it the hard way. I think you're just screening for people who are willing to play along with their roles in this sort of situation, very much the way improv troupes do.

 

[amb]

Ah then please accept my sincere apology! I thought you were interpreting my post as being in support of unproven interventions: let's put it down to pre-Christmas adrenaline

And yes people do try to "cook the books" in the face of evidence. Many of the alt crowd like to move the goalposts. As an aside, a study (don't have the reference for once but can slap it on here if anybody wants to follow it up) found iridology to be particularly dangerous insofar as its use as a diagnostic tool distracts people from proper medical care.

But not all hypnosis is nonsense, we just need to sort the rubbish from the good. A lot of hypnosis belongs alongside iridology et al but some belongs alongside cognitive-behavioural therapy et al.

No need to apologize.
I really have no time for ''alternative medicine''. It's sometimes extremely dangerous when mixed with conventional therapy, especially if the patient goes off using prescribed drugs by a real doctor. A friend of mine was discovered to have contracted Hep. C. After a little while, and some brainwashing from some so-called friend of his, he decided to go see a nauturepath, who prescribed something called Rose- Mary's thistle, which has as it's main ingredient alcohol, which is deadly to Hep. C. sufferers. After this was pointed out to my friend, he continued with conventional medicine, and like me avoids like the plague alternative therapies. I spent thousands of dollars with chiropractic, osteopath, deep tissue massage and other witchcraft therapies, for a crook back. I actually helped myself with a hot water bottle, which cost about $10 from a drug store.

 

[JFrankA]

I do a comedy juggling show, and I have volunteers from the audience do all sorts of very strange, silly, and sometimes apparently dangerous things on stage. All I do is ask for volunteers and tell them what to do. Sorry "induction" is just a bit of play acting.

In over 20 years (thousands of shows), I'll be there've been a total of maybe a dozen people who refused to do what I ask them. There have been thousands of volunteers who did the things I asked them to because there is an expectation based on the situation 1) that I won't hurt them and 2) that it's all in fun.

Granted, the compliance I get in my act doesn't prove that you're not doing what you say you are, but if you're actually "inducing" people into some sort of state that they need to "come out of," you're doing it the hard way. I think you're just screening for people who are willing to play along with their roles in this sort of situation, very much the way improv troupes do.

Sorry, I was trying to answer Zas' questions. Please realize that I'm using the words "inducing" and "trance" simply because there's no real scientific word for it.

Of course what I'm doing is the same as a comedy imporv troup (which I've been a part of also), or what you do (I can't juggle... ), but that's my point: all of it is a mixture of trust, desire, suggestablity, concentration and relaxation. Nothing magical, nothing woo. Just something we all naturally do.

Each different kind of performer uses different "inductions", or maybe a better word in this case would be "pratter", to achieve, for lack of a better word, that "state" they want their participants in.

And of course I'm weeding out the people. I do that right on stage in front of everyone. I don't hide it at all. I'm looking for people who are more suggestable than the others. (Please note: suggestable does not mean gullible. It can, but not always).

I've said it before in this thread and I'll reinterate it here:

Go to a good movie. Sit in your seat. Watch the film. If the movie, if the visuals, the dialogue, the charactors, the actors, etc, "touch" you in any way, you will be drawn into the movie. You'll forget that you are merely in a seat. You won't notice the people coming back from the consession stand.

Your heart beats faster during the exciting scenes, you might cry with the sad scenes, you might cheer at the victorious scenes.

Then at the end of the film, you walk out still feeling the experience of what you saw. Did you actually go through it? Physically, no. However, let me ask you this: How did you feel when the Death Star blew up?

That's what I do. Only I don't use visuals, I use words. I'm basically a poet. Whether performing onstage or individually, I use someone's desire, focus and suggestablity, to plant a feeling in the mind. Some people really get into it and "experience" it. Some people do to a lesser extent. But it's a real thing we all do to ourselves and each other every day.

I claim no supernatural powers. I claim no psychic ablity. In fact, the first thing I do in every show is use the movie example to explain hypnosis. I am very upfront with the audience. And yet, it still works.

And it works because a) it's something we do everyday to ourselves and b)there are many ways to get people into that "state": Confusion, distraction, the right words, a reward system, negative reinforcement and many many other psychological exercises I use to get someone in that "state". Nothing fancy, nothing supernatural.

Now I don't know how it can be measured, I don't know if it can. This is a subjective thing. Different people are going to react differently in different situtations: some people reach that "state" by adding numbers, some by reading, some listening to a person drone on and on (like me right now. )

And in the case of therapy, I've said it before, too: quitting smoking, losing weight, etc, via hypnosis only works because the subject really is ready to do so. There's a reward system built up, if the "hypnosis award" is greater than the "habit reward" and the person is really ready to change, it will work.

Let me give you an example: I lost 130 pounds between Nov 2003 to May 2005. I used Weight Watchers and exercise. However, whenever I was tempted to break the diet I would hold out my hands palm up and say to myself "Do I want to eat this?" and move my right hand up and down slightly, "or do I want to meet women?" and move my left hand slightly. I'd then look at the hands for a bit and toss my right hand over my shoulder and say "meet women". I still do it to this day.

Is that hypnosis? In a way, yes. It is a ritutal that enforces my desire to eat smartly, makes me focus, allows me to exploit my own suggestablity and reinforces my eventual reward. Now if the eating was more of a reward, the ritual would be useless. But it works on me partly because I was ready to lose weight. I had made that final choice. If I wasn't really ready, if I was half-*ssed about it, it wouldn't have made all that much of a difference.

The point is: I'm doing nothing different than what a movie maker does, or a book writer, an intimidating boss, or even what you do to yourself to get motivated. I just use different psychological techinques and dress it differently.

.....and sorry for the long post, I hope that helps explain my position.

 

[amb]

The subject acts in accordance with expectations of the hypnotist and hypnotic situation and behaves as he thinks one is supposed to behave while hypnotized. The hynopotist acts in accordance with expectations of subject and or audience and hynotic situation. and behaves as he thinks one is supposed to behave while playing the role of hyponotist. Sometimes a pep talk achives the same result.

 

[Senex]

Even more interesting is Derren Brown's claim that internal organs are not as sensitive as other parts of the body, hence the success of "hypno-surgery" is more to do with the fact that the pain is not really as intense as we we would think. So the combination of placebo and "lack of pain in the first place" could go a long way to producing the effect. Maybe somebody could confirm if Brown is on the right track with this?

I can confirm that I have seen Brown mislead his TV audience about what hypnosis is capable of (zombie arcade game is the most misleading example).

I don't know, I think I've had a damn good go at it in my earlier posts! As I keep saying, more research is required!

I disagree. I think hypnosis is a particularly unusual phenomenon. Some researches will find whatever they are looking to find and some researches will not find what they hope not to find.

Some people will benefit from therapeutic hypnosis and others won't. Some types of inductions work for some people and other types won't work. Ericsonian hypnosis is different than conventional wisdom and hypnotists can't agree which is better. I know darn well that Darren Brown's Ericsonian handshakes and patter just masks standard mentalist tricks.

I once found a website I'll admit I watched some video clips from. I watched clips of college girls gone wild during spring break wet T-shirt contests. (I watched this strictly for research purposes). Those girls are in college and they knew they were being videotaped. (I bet they had to sign a release) yet when they got on stage they behaved naughtier than your traditional stripper show (I read about stripper shows and this was naughtier.) My point is that the suggestion to perform for an audience for these girls is similar on one level to the ways stage hypnotists work. These girls must have been caught up in the suggestion of the moment. Believe me, these girls can never run for Supreme Court Justice with this video out. I suspect they wouldn't have done it if they could take it back.

Now that's not to say that I haven't worked one on one with people who wanted to know what hypnosis is like and had some success with suggestion.

 

[robinson]

Alcohol is a potent hypnotic drug.

 

[Senex]

Alcohol is a potent hypnotic drug.

Potent yes, not traditionally looked at as hypnotic.

 

[robinson]

It is one of the original hypnotics.