Hyper Velocity Asteroids and Mantle Plumes

[catsmate]

The impact was at Hellas Basin on Mars. The apparent direction of the impact vector was toward the northern (rotation) pole. Approximately 35% of the planet around the northern pole was resurfaced in the last 300 million years. Very little cratering in the Northern Lowlands so it is relatively young.

The asteroid may have entered at the Hellas Basin and detonated somewhere below the northern pole. If it had completely penetrated the planet the superheated (> 50,000 K) asteroid would explosively expand and partially or totally resurface the Northern hemisphere.

Because the Northern Hemisphere is lower by about 4 kilometers than the rest of the planet, it appears that the asteroid carried away a significant portion. About 1/10th of 1 percent of Mar’s mass either, when the asteroid exited, or when the plume fountained material at escape velocity. This indicates that at a minimum that some of the molten material attained Martian escape velocity.

No.

Edited by LashL: 

Removed quote of moderated content and response to same.

 

[Hellbound]

Actually, your email error simply suggests that the certificate was issued to an incorrect name, or you are using a duplicate URL that isn't listed on the certificate. It's a certifcate problem, not necessarily a spoofing problem. You can view the securoty certificate right there from your browser and see exactly what URL name it weas issued for, and know where your traffic is headed.

It happens all the time, and is absolutely NO indiication of ANYTHING to do with .gov or .mil,

<SNIP>

Edited by LashL: 

Removed breach.

 

[Dinwar]

Because the Northern Hemisphere is lower by about 4 kilometers than the rest of the planet, it appears that the asteroid carried away a significant portion.

This is nonsense. An asteroid big enough to carry away the top 4 km of any spherical body would, if it impacted the body, destroy it. The resulting mass would re-form as at least one spherical body--with variations, of course, but mostly spherical. There's no way to remove 4 km of material from Mars by hitting it really hard without destroying it.

 

[Reality Check]

Because the Northern Hemisphere is lower by about 4 kilometers than the rest of the planet, it appears that the asteroid carried away a significant portion.

Whoops, DeathDart, you do know the difference between north and south ?
The Hellas Impact Basin is in the Southern Hemisphere.
The Vastitas Borealis with its two basins (North Polar Basin and Utopia Planitia) is in the Northern Hemisphere and is usually cited as evidence for a past ocean.

 

[DeathDart]

Still no calculation for the collisional cross-section of the Earth and other Solar system bodies for an extra-solar rock.

Quelle surprise.

The hyper velocity asteroid (>100 kms) is a single pass event since it won't be gravitationally captured. So if there are 5 hyper velocity strikes every 100 million years does that mean the Earth can hide behind Jupiter? Small cross-section as in what, a zero cross-section?

Get the real impact history from the big oil companies and determine the likelihood then.

 

[DeathDart]

Whoops, DeathDart, you do know the difference between north and south ?
The Hellas Impact Basin is in the Southern Hemisphere.
The Vastitas Borealis with its two basins (North Polar Basin and Utopia Planitia) is in the Northern Hemisphere and is usually cited as evidence for a past ocean.

It went through the planet. Just like a bullet can go through an orange.

A stony object 10 kilometers in diameter traveling at 100 kms has 1.671E+09
Megatons of explosive energy. Mars is a wittle bitty planet so this is enough energy to punch through.

Kinetic energy does not become random thermal energy by snapping your fingers. Example: A fan in the space station does not produce any thrust because every single molecule that the fan produces thrust from, hits the opposite wall of the station and cancels out the thrust of the fan. Kinetic energy does not disappear into heat.

The kinetic energy of the asteroid continues even after the asteroid is vaporized. A small mass say 10 km diameter moving at 100 kms becomes a much larger (and slower) kinetic mass below the Martian pole. Some of this mass is still moving with Martian escape velocity when it breaches the surface.

**** if there was an ocean there! The impact blew away a mass equivalent to 4 km in depth across the Northern Lowlands!

The molten material flowed to the exit wound and filled it in.

Even an ocean would show gigantic impacts, so where are they? The Northern Lowlands are not cratered because they have been recently molten!

 

[DeathDart]

This is nonsense. An asteroid big enough to carry away the top 4 km of any spherical body would, if it impacted the body, destroy it. The resulting mass would re-form as at least one spherical body--with variations, of course, but mostly spherical. There's no way to remove 4 km of material from Mars by hitting it really hard without destroying it.

A slow impact <50 kms would melt the whole planet, and it would need to be a very large mass. Smaller, much higher velocity masses, act quite a bit differently. If a hyper velocity asteroid doesn't pass through a body, it does cause a massive amount of material to heat up.

<SNIP>

Edited by LashL: 

Removed breach. Be civil and polite, and address the argument rather than attacking the arguer.

The Northern Lowlands are where some of the asteroids energy exited the planet carrying away about 1/10th of 1% of Mar's mass.

 

[DeathDart]

Actually, your email error simply suggests that the certificate was issued to an incorrect name, or you are using a duplicate URL that isn't listed on the certificate. It's a certifcate problem, not necessarily a spoofing problem. You can view the securoty certificate right there from your browser and see exactly what URL name it weas issued for, and know where your traffic is headed.

It happens all the time, and is absolutely NO indiication of ANYTHING to do with .gov or .mil,

<SNIP>

Edited by LashL: 

Removed breach.

Thank you The cerificate is not quite the same. I am using the services of a large commercial mail server so thousands of other customers must be having the same problem. So ... you might still be right. Though it has been that way for several years.

 

[DeathDart]

Asteroids are small. Space is very, very, very big.

Given that you have no evidence that local stars have velocities all over the place, many with vectors that can bring them much closer, your argument that the Solar System is touchable. is so far a fantasy.

DeathDart, are you ignorant of what circular reasoning is?
This is the second time that you have used this logical fallacy.
You cannot use your premise to prove your premise !

You especially cannot use a physically impossible premise to prove a premise![/QUOTE]

The Hipparcos observations say that stars locally have substantial relative velocities. Also the Milky Way galaxy is three dimensional, so that means it is not flat. Some stars do not orbit in the plane of the galaxy. These stars therefore cross the plane and orbit outside the plane to return to the plane 180 degrees later. The Star loses velocity when they are outside the plane, so when it returns to the plane it falls in behind the material it was near in the previous crossing.

This would suggest more of a kinetic bee hive model that allows plenty of material sharing between Star systems.

 

[Dinwar]

Smaller, much higher velocity masses, act quite a bit differently.

Declaring it so doesn't make it true.

It punches through or compresses the material ahead of it at the point of impact and produces a small entry wound, just like the head injury you sustained. Your brain absorbed the bullets energy and your skull has just a small hole. Either that, or you don't understand Physics that well.

Hahaha, yes, a "you're retarted" joke. Pathetic.

And I note that now you're talkking about ADDING TO a planet, where previously you were talking about REMOVING FROM a planet. Nice how your argument bounces around to wherever you need it.

You've also ignored how bullets work. The brain doesn't absorb much energy at all--the BONE does. For some bullets, like a .22 pistol shot, the bullet bounces around inside the brain case until the energy is expended. That's why the SS used them. At higher velocities, there's enough energy left for the bullet to go straight through the skull, resulting in a massive exit wound. Bolides demonstrably do not act like that. No rock that's hit the planet has exhibited any of those characteristics, nor have you provided any evidence for it.

ETA: You've also ignored how stress effects rocks. It's not as simple as "they compress". They can only compress to a certain point--and the energy of an incoming bolide is enough to liquify them, several times over. We know that because we've seen it. There's no way to punch through a planet's crust without liquifying rock. Plus, any planet with a crust by definition has something different below that. Again, you are completely ignoring pressure release melting. Which is odd, given your desire to see me shot--the human body is actually under a bit of internal pressure, and if the barrier holding it in is breached internal bits can become externalized by that pressure (I speak from experience here--I've seen my own kneecap thanks to that process). In a similar way, the rocks of any planet are under increased pressure the deeper you go--there's more rock above them, after all. A bolide that colides with the planet, breaking the crust, will result in a massive episode of pressure release melting, regardless of any other melting (meaning, I'm going to assume ad argundum that your logic isn't completely insane). This would result in, at minimum, volcanism on a scale that can only be described as Biblical.

 

[wollery]

The hyper velocity asteroid (>100 kms) is a single pass event since it won't be gravitationally captured. So if there are 5 hyper velocity strikes every 100 million years does that mean the Earth can hide behind Jupiter? Small cross-section as in what, a zero cross-section?

Get the real impact history from the big oil companies and determine the likelihood then.

That would be a no then. No calculation of the collisional cross section of the earth and other Solar system bodies.

Is there a reason you won't do that bit of maths?

Could it be that you know what the answer shows?

Is it because you have no idea how to do it?

 

[Mark6]

It went through the planet. Just like a bullet can go through an orange.

A stony object 10 kilometers in diameter traveling at 100 kms has 1.671E+09
Megatons of explosive energy. Mars is a wittle bitty planet so this is enough energy to punch through.

That is sufficient to prove you have no clue what you are talking about.

Rocks or metal colliding at hypervelocities (defined as "significantly above speed of sound within the material in question") do not behave like bullets or oranges. They behave like liquids. A 10 km object traveling at 100 km/sec hitting Mars would splash. As would the portion of Mars under it.

 

[Mitchell314]

It went through the planet. Just like a bullet can go through an orange.

A stony object 10 kilometers in diameter traveling at 100 kms has 1.671E+09
Megatons of explosive energy. Mars is a wittle bitty planet so this is enough energy to punch through.

I don't think that's how physics works at all. For the most part, a stony asteroid wouldn't survive passing any farther than a couple multiples of its diameter through the crust. If the orange was as big and dense relative to the bullet as a planet was to the asteroid, the bullet would not make it all the way though. BTW, this would make for a great idea in a squeal to James and the Giant Peach. If you've seen pictures of craters, you'll notice that their radii are much larger than their depths. There are reasons for this.

Kinetic energy does not become random thermal energy by snapping your fingers. Example: A fan in the space station does not produce any thrust because every single molecule that the fan produces thrust from, hits the opposite wall of the station and cancels out the thrust of the fan. Kinetic energy does not disappear into heat.

I could debate this, but two words can easily invalidate this analogy: compressive heating.

The kinetic energy of the asteroid continues even after the asteroid is vaporized. A small mass say 10 km diameter moving at 100 kms becomes a much larger (and slower) kinetic mass below the Martian pole. Some of this mass is still moving with Martian escape velocity when it breaches the surface.

The energy from impact is expanding in a shell. This is not newton's cradle we're talking about here.

 

[Craig B]

... A bolide that colides with the planet, breaking the crust, will result in a massive episode of pressure release melting, regardless of any other melting ... This would result in, at minimum, volcanism on a scale that can only be described as Biblical.

The extinction of the dinosaurs has been ascribed both to an asteroid strike and to an episode of extreme volcanism. Your observation suggests that the one caused the other, but they appear to have been in different parts of the world. Could a bolide strike cause volcanic events to occur at a great distance from the point of impact?

 

[Dinwar]

The extinction of the dinosaurs has been ascribed both to an asteroid strike and to an episode of extreme volcanism.

Back when I was studying the K/Pg extinction, it seemed very much that the only real holdout for the volcanism theory was Gertta Keller. Most people now generally agree that the impact alone would have been sufficient (there WAS massive volcanism in the form of a bassalt trap cutting loose, and that certainly didn't help, but it wasn't the cause). Basically, the Alvarez Hypothesis has been accepted by almost everyone in the scientific community, and getting almost all paleontologists and geologists to accept ANYTHING is a serious accomplishment. Without some far better data than we've thus far seen (and I keep an ear to the ground on this topic), I don't think there's any reason to assume the Dekkan Traps played a major role in the extinction. They contributed, yes, but they didn't cause it.

Your observation suggests that the one caused the other, but they appear to have been in different parts of the world. Could a bolide strike cause volcanic events to occur at a great distance from the point of impact?

My wife did more research on that than me. She's convinced that it can--the energy can transmit through the mantle and burst out the other side, so to speak (in reality, it takes a bit longer and the burst isn't really explosive, according to most papers I've read). I've read that the idea isn't very widely accepted anymore--there are some problems with the models, they don't appear to fit with reality, but I can't tell you specifics (anything below the crust generally isn't something I'm overly concerned with).

I can say that the massive volcanism around the K/Pg boundary wasn't related to what I was talking about, however. What I'm talking about is the actual impact site itself--simply stripping the crust off an area would be enough to cause extremely violent things to happen (even assuming DeathDart is right and you can do that without extremely violent things happening, which is insane). The rocks of the mantle would pop up and melt, a LOT of water would turn into steam VERY quickly, and the whole thing would explode like the world's largest nuclear warhead (only without the radiation).

 

[mijopaalmc]

There's no reason to think that the the Siberian traps (i.e., the LIP that DD mentioned) played a role in the K/Pg extinction because they weren't in any way contemporaneous, whereas the SiTr were contemporaneous with the P/T mass exitinction. I do not, however, know how widely accepted the theory I've heard advance about antipodal focusing causing massive crustal fracturing and resuliting basaltic flood volcanism on the opposite side of the Eart from the impact site is. In any case, none of the explanations posited for LIP formation pertain to quasi-relativistic projectiles.

 

[DeathDart]

That would be a no then. No calculation of the collisional cross section of the earth and other Solar system bodies.

Is there a reason you won't do that bit of maths?

Could it be that you know what the answer shows?

Is it because you have no idea how to do it?

The cross section is irrelevant since hyper-velocity impact structures are already present on Earth.

If it happens, then the odds are one. Structures like Iceland and the Hawaiian Islands.

 

[DeathDart]

That is sufficient to prove you have no clue what you are talking about.

Rocks or metal colliding at hypervelocities (defined as "significantly above speed of sound within the material in question") do not behave like bullets or oranges. They behave like liquids. A 10 km object traveling at 100 km/sec hitting Mars would splash. As would the portion of Mars under it.

Splash means that what it ecountered was able to reflect that amount of energy straight back. Mars is not made of Neutronium.

 

[DeathDart]

I don't think that's how physics works at all. For the most part, a stony asteroid wouldn't survive passing any farther than a couple multiples of its diameter through the crust. If the orange was as big and dense relative to the bullet as a planet was to the asteroid, the bullet would not make it all the way though. BTW, this would make for a great idea in a squeal to James and the Giant Peach. If you've seen pictures of craters, you'll notice that their radii are much larger than their depths. There are reasons for this.




I could debate this, but two words can easily invalidate this analogy: compressive heating.




The energy from impact is expanding in a shell. This is not newton's cradle we're talking about here.

You are correct the object does not survive. See next post

 

[Reality Check]

This would suggest more of a kinetic bee hive model that allows plenty of material sharing between Star systems.

This does suggest known physical facts are still unknown to you DeathDart :

• Asteroids are in relatively stable obits so there is just about no possibility that an asteroid from one stellar system will enter another stellar system.
  Any perturbation of the orbit is nor likely to make the asteroid crash into its star.
• There is a extremely small possibility that a object from one stellar system will enter another stellar system.
  That object is likely to be a planet ejected during the early lifetime of the system.
• There is a extremely small possibility that a object from one stellar system will hit an planet in that solar system.
• An extremely small possibility of an extremely small possibility happening is a really, really extremely small possibility .
• This has nothing to do with mantle plumes.