Humans Didn't evolve from Apes - How Do We Know?

[Jrrarglblarg]

Apollo, it's just not a mutation but a chromosome fusion which means it won't be passed on without the other partner having the exact same fusion. That's rare but conceivable.

But then that process has to repeat itself. Without both parents having the fusion, the children would not have it and so it would die out with the very next generation.

Your understanding of genetics is incomplete.

Google "punnet square." Today is the birthday of Gregor Mendel, for whom I named my second child. He figured out some pretty neat stuff about genetic markers being passed from generation to generation.

 

[Wowbagger]

Even if one in a thousand, please pay attention to the process. That one in a thousand must mate with another one in a thousand and so forth continually for some time.

What are the odds of that?

Also very good, in large populations!

Especially if the change imparts a survival advantage. The number of people in the population who have the fusion will continue to climb, and out-crowd those who don't.

Remember: Natural Selection is the model we evos are using, here. You seem to forget that, from time to time.

Why do you insist so much inbreeding had to be necessary?

 

[Jrrarglblarg]

I don't have a problem with the inbreeding question.

Anthropologists are trained to avoid "just-so stories" but here goes anyway.

Imagine a troop of LastCommonAncestors (LCA's) hangin' out at the edge of the savannah. There are many troops, largely homogenous with one another, crossbreeding and competing for resources in various degrees. One member of the troop in question has a mutation, the combined chromosome sequence. That individual has a number of offspring.

Again, I'll suggest googling punnet squares to understand how this chromosome difference will spread through a population.

So anyhoo, these offspring carry a copy of the mutation (let's just call it that) along with whatever other genetic tools and/or baggage they carry from teh rest of the troop. This troop is now set on the path that leads away from the other troops around them, who variously would become the chimps, bonobos, gorillas and I think 2 or 3 others, now extinct.

The mutation doesn't prevent the members of the troop from functioning, nor from breeding, and may or may not be part of a spectrum of mutations some of which give selective advantage somewhere in the pallet of environments available for the troops to exploit.

Given the nature of feedback loops, whatever selective advantages this troop has over others will increase over time. We're talking about a MILLION generations or so, which is a lot of iterations in a recursive feedback loop.

Eventually this troop gets to the point that other troops won't or can't breed with them. That's speciation.

 

[RationalVetMed]

So anyhoo, these offspring carry a copy of the mutation (let's just call it that) along with whatever other genetic tools and/or baggage they carry from teh rest of the troop. This troop is now set on the path that leads away from the other troops around them, who variously would become the chimps, bonobos, gorillas and I think 2 or 3 others, now extinct.

Oh, no, I'm sorry but you misspelt the word 'the'. That means God did it.

Evolutionists Give Up: Creationism to be Taught in Schools - http://www.brandonmuller.com/dhtgiveup.html

... The only issue left unresolved was between the creationists themselves concerning which Bible translation to use.

"I'm a big fan of the Living Bible," said Dempsky, "but Dr. Fish prefers the King James. See, we really are legitimate. We have our own in-house debate! It's like he's Dawkins and I'm Gould!"

Yuri

(Other than that - brilliant, nice summary AppolloGnomon, and naming your son after Gregor Mendel is so cool!)

 

[Jrrarglblarg]

Oh, no, I'm sorry but you misspelt the word 'the'. That means God did it.

I'm pretty picky about misspellings other than that one. I generally leave it alone as part of the internet-only variant of the english language.

(Other than that - brilliant, nice summary AppolloGnomon, and naming your son after Gregor Mendel is so cool!)

My 1st is named after Johannes Kepler and my little girl is named after Lillian Gilbreth.

They roll for initiative with d20's to determine who sits where at dinner.

 

[Lowpro]

They roll for initiative with d20's to determine who sits where at dinner.

This cannot be true...

If it is...good on ya sir!

 

[randman]

Your understanding of genetics is incomplete.

Google "punnet square." Today is the birthday of Gregor Mendel, for whom I named my second child. He figured out some pretty neat stuff about genetic markers being passed from generation to generation.

Genetic markers in DNA are different from chromosomes, right?

 

[randman]

Also very good, in large populations!

Especially if the change imparts a survival advantage. The number of people in the population who have the fusion will continue to climb, and out-crowd those who don't.

Kind of like Harry Potter's wand except natural selection is a conservative force, not a creative one.

 

[randman]

I don't have a problem with the inbreeding question.

Anthropologists are trained to avoid "just-so stories" but here goes anyway.

Imagine a troop of LastCommonAncestors (LCA's) hangin' out at the edge of the savannah. There are many troops, largely homogenous with one another, crossbreeding and competing for resources in various degrees. One member of the troop in question has a mutation, the combined chromosome sequence. That individual has a number of offspring.

Again, I'll suggest googling punnet squares to understand how this chromosome difference will spread through a population.

So anyhoo, these offspring carry a copy of the mutation (let's just call it that) along with whatever other genetic tools and/or baggage they carry from teh rest of the troop. This troop is now set on the path that leads away from the other troops around them, who variously would become the chimps, bonobos, gorillas and I think 2 or 3 others, now extinct.

The mutation doesn't prevent the members of the troop from functioning, nor from breeding, and may or may not be part of a spectrum of mutations some of which give selective advantage somewhere in the pallet of environments available for the troops to exploit.

Given the nature of feedback loops, whatever selective advantages this troop has over others will increase over time. We're talking about a MILLION generations or so, which is a lot of iterations in a recursive feedback loop.

Eventually this troop gets to the point that other troops won't or can't breed with them. That's speciation.

Big problem with your story is we're talking about a chromosome fusion, not an allelic mutation.

 

[randman]

Why do you insist so much inbreeding had to be necessary?

Simple. Unlike an allelic mutation, a chromosomal fusion cannot be passed down in this instance without both parents having it. Same with their children and their children. Just one instance of a person not having the mutation kills the chromosomal fusion from being passed down.

It cannot be a recessive or dominant trait. It doesn't play by the same rules as DNA because we're talking the number of chromosomes, not the DNA regulated by the chromosomes.

 

[rwguinn]

The creationalists are looking for science to provide "A" common ancestor, one each, whose children were either chimps,or human.
No room for gradual change, when goddidit is always quantum in nature.

 

[A'isha]

Simple. Unlike an allelic mutation, a chromosomal fusion cannot be passed down in this instance without both parents having it. Same with their children and their children. Just one instance of a person not having the mutation kills the chromosomal fusion from being passed down.

It cannot be a recessive or dominant trait. It doesn't play by the same rules as DNA because we're talking the number of chromosomes, not the DNA regulated by the chromosomes.

Actually, the heterozygous transmission of chromosomal translocations has been well known and the subject of several studies. Like this one for mice, for instance, or this one for humans.

 

[Wowbagger]

Kind of like Harry Potter's wand except natural selection is a conservative force, not a creative one.

Natural selection can, in effect, be a creative force.

I can show you how the eye evolved, through natural selection, if you'd like. Or the various forms of flight. Or, any other examples you can name.

I suspect you'll just wave 'em all away. But, I can still try, if you'd like.

 

[randman]

You can show just-so stories which do not even add up as just-so stories, and that's because you are not thinking carefully about the process involved.

 

[A'isha]

You can show just-so stories which do not even add up as just-so stories, and that's because you are not thinking carefully about the process involved.

Like believing that heterozygous transmission of fused chromosomes is impossible?

 

[randman]

Actually, the heterozygous transmission of chromosomal translocations has been well known and the subject of several studies. Like this one for mice, for instance, or this one for humans.

Exactly which is why the Panda's Thumb article does not address the issue properly. It ignores the volume of research on the topic.

Consider the following quote and bolded abstract in one of your links:

This non-Mendelian inheritance will result in increased overall risk of aneuploidies in the families of Robertsonian translocation carriers, independently of the origin of the transmission ratio distortion.

You applied Mendelian inheritance to a non-Mendelian process. I am guessing you just learned of these things and that's fine, but there are reasons that chromosomal fusion is a little different than allelic mutations outside of chromosomal abnormalities.

 

[A'isha]

You applied Mendelian inheritance to a non-Mendelian process. I am guessing you just learned of these things and that's fine, but there are reasons that chromosomal fusion is a little different than allelic mutations outside of chromosomal abnormalities.

It's talking about Mendelian ratios, randman, not a "non-Mendelian process". It says that meiotic segregation as seen in the study does not occur according to Mendel's First Law, skewing the inheritance so that the mutant fused chromosome is passed on to more offspring than would otherwise be the case in a straight Mendelian ratio, resulting in more balanced (heterozygous) offspring vs. unbalanced (homozygous) offspring and completely normal offspring than there would be had the gametes been distributed according to the First Law.

EDIT: I'm sure ApolloGnomon would be happy to explain this to you in further detail, if you ask him.

 

[dropzone]

I'm pretty picky about misspellings other than that one. I generally leave it alone as part of the internet-only variant of the english language.

Feh! I've made that typo since years before teh internet. And it was a PITA when you were using a manual typewriter in the days before Wite-Out became commonly available.

 

[Jrrarglblarg]

EDIT: I'm sure ApolloGnomon would be happy to explain this to you in further detail, if you ask him.

"Happy" is a rather strong word, but I suppose I could try teaching freshman genetics to unwilling students on the internets. Not that I expect success.

 

[Marduk]

You can show just-so stories which do not even add up as just-so stories, and that's because you are not thinking carefully about the process involved.

what, like the Eden story, or Noah, or Abraham, or Moses, incredible that you don't see the truth staring you in the face, you are for instance reading a book written for a different religious belief and saying, its inerrant, when the very people who wrote the book for themselves don't even claim that.
they would know right ?
or did the nasty satan trick them ?

you believe in a book of bronze age fairy stories and an invisible sky daddy and youre here what, trying to tell intelligent people that they have it wrong. you my friend are whats known as "intellectually bankrupt"