Huh? Terrorists???

[marksman]

Your position was clear to me all the time - nevertheless I don't believe that the initial agenda of the Muslim Brotherhood didn't change over the years.

"Initial" means first. How can an initial agenda change? When an agenda changes, it is a second agenda (or supplemental or subseuqent...)

It's like saying the US is still fighting communism in the war on terror - which is a simple fallacy on your side.

Fighting communism wasn't America's initial agenda, obviously, since America predates Marx's publication of the Communiest Manifesto.

At any rate, America's agenda of fighting communism changed because it succeeded. Since Al Qaeda has not succeeded at creating a new Caliphate, they have no reaosn to have changed that agenda, unless you have evidence that they have actively abandoned such a goal.

The main reason nowadays aren't some dumb freedoms - it's the foreign policies.

Evidence? (And how odd of you to call freedoms dumb... do you believe freedoms are dumb, Oliver?)

And with Iraq it's exactly what happened...

That America reacted poorly to the attack is not evidence of the motivations of the attackers. Do you have evidence to support your uneducated opinion that Al Qaeda's ultimate goal is the preservation of fundamentalist Islam against Western culture, democracy and freedom?

Please watch before you reply

Are you under some impression (despite my having said the exact opposite) that I think the Iraq War was justified?

 

[Quad4_72]

Firstly this is just more of the same appeals to emotion in place of logic. Your fellow Americans lose their lives to lightning strikes and drunk drivers too, and presumably to your way of thinking a drunken collision with ANY of your fellow Americans is a drunken collision with you and you should not stand for it.

This had been explained earlier. You must have missed it. Drunk driving, lightning strikes, murders, car accidents, etc are not malicious acts targeted specifically against Americans from outside sources. The mere fact that you would compare a terrorist attack to a drunk driving accident or lightning strike makes me question whether you are even worth debating. The political implications, the fear, and the shock from terrorism has far more reaching effects than any drunk driving accident. 9/11 was a DIRECT attack specifically targeted at murdering thousands of innocent Americans. You can sit there and argue all day that terrorism isn't that big of a threat and it should be put on the back burner. All I gotta say is that I am glad people like you aren't defending America. I wonder if you would say terrorism is not that big of a threat if they detonated a nuclear bomb in the center of New York?...

[/quote]

 

[Ziggurat]

This is exactly what I'm saying and frankly, I wouldn't lament the destruction of Islam.

Perhaps not in the abstract, but considering that to actually destroy Islam would require killing a few hundred million to a billion-odd people, I suspect you would lament the actual implementation. I would. Which is why I want to be aggressive now, because I don't think we've reached the point of inevitability in this conflict. And if we have, well, none of the qualms we've had so far, none of the costs we've paid (in blood or treasure), and none of the damage we've inflicted are going to affect the end total very much anyways. So we might as well act like it's not inevitable in the hope that it isn't.

 

[EeneyMinnieMoe]

No. I live in NYC and I'm more afraid of getting killed crossing the street than Al Queda.

Not since the anthrax has there been an attack. Not since 9/11 has there been a major attack. Osama bin Laden, if he's still alive, is in hiding and of no immediate danger to any American.

 

[g4macdad]

I believe you think we should force public schools to teach your religion's creation myth as scientific fact, and all the evil in the world will melt away or something.

I responded to this post, (a personal attack on me), and my response was moved! His original post is still here!

This forum is a complete joke.

 

[g4macdad]

Originally Posted by WildCat
I believe you think we should force public schools to teach your religion's creation myth as scientific fact, and all the evil in the world will melt away or something.

Nah I was thinking, arm them, get Mickey Mouse to brainwash them, and have them kill the problem away.

More your speed?

A quote from you:

"With attitudes such as yours, it's no wonder that even today Germany must have laws against Holocaust deniers to try to keep the anti-semitism that is clearly still bubbling just under the surface from exploding out once more."

Just where do you think creationism comes from? Anti-semite much?

 

[Darth Rotor]

This forum is a complete joke.

Ah, grasshopper, you begin to understand a bit more than when you first arrived.

Now, for the most fun of this week, I suggest you go and argue with the mods about why they do what they do.

It is done on a sub forum called "Forum Management."

I am sure you can find it.

Let us know how it goes. I am sure your awesomeness as a Mac pogue will be an immense asset in your efforts to unscrew this forum.

DR

 

[g4macdad]

Ah, grasshopper, you begin to understand a bit more than when you first arrived.

Now, for the most fun of this week, I suggest you go and argue with the mods about why they do what they do.

It is done on a sub forum called "Forum Management."

I am sure you can find it.

Let us know how it goes. I am sure your awesomeness as a Mac pogue will be an immense asset in your efforts to unscrew this forum.

DR

Yes, makes perfect sense?

 

[WildCat]

Just where do you think creationism comes from? Anti-semite much?

Kent Hovind is Jewish?

 

[ImaginalDisc]

I do not understand why we panicked after 9/11. Three thousand people were killed in a tragic act of senseless violence. More than fifty thousand people die every year in this country in traffic accidents. Thousands of people die all the time from preventable illnesses we lack the political will to treat affordably. There are far greater threats to our lives and well being than Islamic terrorists. When they attacked us on 9/11, they were hoping for a war of ideology. They were hoping to pit their unreasoning faith against our country's might, and we gave them exactly what they wanted: a seemingly endless war.

We know that 15 of the hijackers cam from Saudi Arabia, a country that has seen a precipitous decline in per capita income in the past thirty years, and yet we continue to support the brutish, theocratic regime of monarchical monsters who strangle that country merely because they're our ally in a region we don't much try to understand. We invaded a country completely unrelated to any acts of terrorism against the U.S because, well, I'm still not clear on what the administration's motives were. The poverty and social injustice we support, whether knowingly in some kind of cunning plan or, more likely, out of disinterest, in the Middle East has created fertile ground for these terrorists groups to recruit. They're very attractive to disenfranchised and poor young men angry with a system that involves American apathy. It's that very apathy and our arrogance which makes America a convenient scape goat for more complicated problems.

I'm not as frightened of a bunch of self-righteous religious murderers as I am of our lack of empathy, our indifference, and our ignorance. In the long run, we're much more destructive to ourselves than any suicide bomber could be.

 

[Drysdale]

Just reading through this thread it's abundantly clear some people just refuse to see evil. The old "If I treat everyone well and am compassionate my karma will protect me crowd." Time to grow up and face reality.

As was pointed out a few times this isnt just drunks endangering people this is an attack on anyone who does'nt share their radical philosophy.

And to the responses of, well that hijacking tricks done they cant do that again, they're incapable of major attacks etc,why they're just a gang,we had warnings before and we should have listened etc,etc.

Your viewpoint confirms exactly why it probably will happen again. Hope I'm wrong, and maybe not with planes but it probably will.

It's called complacency, believing it cant happen again.
How many warnings do you think are out there we dont hear about?

Hindsight is always 20-20. We should have stopped them since we had warnings before crowd. Well, there's thousands of threats that arent carried out or successful but man we should'a stopped that one.

Unbelieveable.

 

[Oliver]

Just reading through this thread it's abundantly clear some people just refuse to see evil. The old "If I treat everyone well and am compassionate my karma will protect me crowd." Time to grow up and face reality.

As was pointed out a few times this isnt just drunks endangering people this is an attack on anyone who does'nt share their radical philosophy.

And to the responses of, well that hijacking tricks done they cant do that again, they're incapable of major attacks etc,why they're just a gang,we had warnings before and we should have listened etc,etc.

Your viewpoint confirms exactly why it probably will happen again. Hope I'm wrong, and maybe not with planes but it probably will.

It's called complacency, believing it cant happen again.
How many warnings do you think are out there we dont hear about?

Hindsight is always 20-20. We should have stopped them since we had warnings before crowd. Well, there's thousands of threats that arent carried out or successful but man we should'a stopped that one.

Unbelieveable.

Huh? There were dozens of warnings before 9/11 from all over the World that a major attack is coming.

All the key players were known but they were able to travel into the US nevertheless because a very lazy Government.

9/11 happened and can't happen the same way again and suspects also can't travel as easy as before, I highly suspect.

Of course a Terror-Attack can happen again - welcome to the real World.

So what's your fear about? Are you scared if you drive a car because car accidents happen every view minutes?

 

[Oliver]

We know that 15 of the hijackers cam from Saudi Arabia, a country that has seen a precipitous decline in per capita income in the past thirty years, and yet we continue to support the brutish, theocratic regime of monarchical monsters who strangle that country merely because they're our ally in a region we don't much try to understand. We invaded a country completely unrelated to any acts of terrorism against the U.S because, well, I'm still not clear on what the administration's motives were.

Any information regarding the Saudi-Connection was classified and the Bin Ladens and Friends were flown out of the States during the stand down all over the US. The information regarding the Saudi connections are blackened in the 9/11 commission report and the U.S. Congressional Inquiry.

If anyone in the Government would have been interested in the source of the Attacks, they would have shown more interest in Pakistan and Saudi Arabia.

Now if the government doesn't care about the 9/11 perpetrators and terrorism from the same sources, why should anyone else believe their terror-propaganda and that they're about to protect us? I don't believe this anymore because it's a blatant, political lie.

The most probable motive is strategic, political imperialism to gain control in the Middle-East. Which is exactly the kind of stuff that creates terrorism. So basically it seems that foreign policies deliberately create more terrorism to strengthen the political course and to tell us stupid phrases like: "See? There is terrorism everywhere, we were right about the War on Terror. Vote for us to fight them...".

 

[Thunder]

Deliberately create more terrorism? I dont know about that. I see how they use the fear of terror to justify their political objectives, but thats a far cry from actually wanting to create it. I really take their word for is that they thought they could democratize the Middle East through the barrel of a gun. Neo-Cons are that idealistic. Did they want the flow of oil from Iraq to be so screwed up? Na. The failure in Iraq is the greatest threat to Republican foreign policy ideology since the fall of the Shah.

 

[Oliver]

Deliberately create more terrorism? I dont know about that. I see how they use the fear of terror to justify their political objectives, but thats a far cry from actually wanting to create it. I really take their word for is that they thought they could democratize the Middle East through the barrel of a gun. Neo-Cons are that idealistic. Did they want the flow of oil from Iraq to be so screwed up? Na. The failure in Iraq is the greatest threat to Republican foreign policy ideology since the fall of the Shah.

I don't know if creating terrorism was intentional but the probability to create a lot of new terrorism with the Iraq invasion was at least known and ignored according to Tenet and Clarke.

Also ignoring and classifying the Saudi Arabia connection was a sign that there is no interest in finding and to point out the financial sources that also were connected to the 9/11 attacks.

Beside the Afghan invasion, every effort so far to get Al Qaida is pretty lousy and it doesn't show any priority concerning current Al Qaida terrorism, even if it's possible that the Iraq war may also be intended to reduce terrorism in a very long run. But that would include stability in Iraq, no withdraw.

 

[TriangleMan]

the Bin Ladens and Friends were flown out of the States during the stand down all over the US.

Source? I recall Moore claiming that, but snopes disagrees.

 

[Tony]

Just reading through this thread it's abundantly clear some people just refuse to see evil. The old "If I treat everyone well and am compassionate my karma will protect me crowd." Time to grow up and face reality.

As was pointed out a few times this isnt just drunks endangering people this is an attack on anyone who does'nt share their radical philosophy.

And to the responses of, well that hijacking tricks done they cant do that again, they're incapable of major attacks etc,why they're just a gang,we had warnings before and we should have listened etc,etc.

Your viewpoint confirms exactly why it probably will happen again. Hope I'm wrong, and maybe not with planes but it probably will.

It's called complacency, believing it cant happen again.
How many warnings do you think are out there we dont hear about?

Hindsight is always 20-20. We should have stopped them since we had warnings before crowd. Well, there's thousands of threats that arent carried out or successful but man we should'a stopped that one.

Unbelieveable.

This is an incoherent mess.

 

[Tony]

I do not understand why we panicked after 9/11.

You don't? Speaking as someone who panicked, it was because the nature of the attack was completely unprecidented and (for many many people) unexpected. Add in the facts that it was caught on live tv and the administration was saying that another attack wasn't a question of if, but when and it's easy to see why we panicked.

Three thousand people were killed in a tragic act of senseless violence. More than fifty thousand people die every year in this country in traffic accidents. Thousands of people die all the time from preventable illnesses we lack the political will to treat affordably. There are far greater threats to our lives and well being than Islamic terrorists. When they attacked us on 9/11, they were hoping for a war of ideology. They were hoping to pit their unreasoning faith against our country's might, and we gave them exactly what they wanted: a seemingly endless war.

You're right of course, but the country wasn't in a rational position. And it demonstrates how scummy the administration was to exploit that fear and panic for their own ends.

We know that 15 of the hijackers cam from Saudi Arabia, a country that has seen a precipitous decline in per capita income in the past thirty years, and yet we continue to support the brutish, theocratic regime of monarchical monsters who strangle that country merely because they're our ally in a region we don't much try to understand. We invaded a country completely unrelated to any acts of terrorism against the U.S because, well, I'm still not clear on what the administration's motives were. The poverty and social injustice we support, whether knowingly in some kind of cunning plan or, more likely, out of disinterest, in the Middle East has created fertile ground for these terrorists groups to recruit. They're very attractive to disenfranchised and poor young men angry with a system that involves American apathy. It's that very apathy and our arrogance which makes America a convenient scape goat for more complicated problems.

I'm not as frightened of a bunch of self-righteous religious murderers as I am of our lack of empathy, our indifference, and our ignorance. In the long run, we're much more destructive to ourselves than any suicide bomber could be.

Well said.

 

[Oliver]

Source? I recall Moore claiming that, but snopes disagrees.

I read and heard about it from several sources - here are two of them: (around 00:30:00)

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I AGREE

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bin_Laden_family

The New York Times reported that beginning on September 11, the bin Laden family were quickly called together by officials from the Saudi Embassy, which feared that they might become the victims of American reprisals. With approval from the F.B.I., according to a Saudi official, the bin Ladens flew by private jet from Los Angeles to Orlando, then on to Washington, D.C. and finally to Boston. Once the FAA permitted overseas flights, the jet flew to Europe.

 

[Oliver]

Another source: The 9/11 commission report:

http://www.gpoaccess.gov/911/pdf/fullreport.pdf

28.These flights were screened by law enforcement officials, primarily the FBI. For example, one flight, the so-called Bin Ladin flight, departed the United States on September 20 with 26 passengers, most of them relatives of Usama Bin Ladin.

The Bin Ladin flight and other flights we examined were screened in accordance with policies set by FBI headquarters and coordinated through working-level interagency processes. Michael Rolince interview (June 9, 2004).

Although most of the passengers were not interviewed, 22 of the 26 people on the Bin Ladin flight were interviewed by the FBI. Many were asked detailed questions. None of the passengers stated that they had any recent contact with Usama Bin Ladin or knew anything about terrorist activity.See, e.g., FBI report of investigation, interview of Mohammed Saleh Bin Laden, Sept. 21, 2001.As Richard Clarke noted, long before 9/11 the FBI was following members of the Bin Ladin family in the United States closely. Richard Clarke testimony, Mar. 24, 2004.