How Will Trump Change the Republican Party?

[ChristianProgressive]

There have been many conflicts in American political life, the two parties have at times adopted very extreme positions. But history shows that most Americans are not extremists and that over time the major parties moderate their positions and compromises are reached. With a nation of this size and complexity it's really the only way it can work.

The problem is that the Right has drug the Overton Window so far over to their side that "compromise" by the Left doesn't get us back to a balanced America. To do that would mean the TEAOP giving up too much of what they think of as their rightful gains.

 

[ChristianProgressive]

I disagree. The racist attacks are coming from the Right. Protesting against racism is not extremism.

Calling for "dead cops", chanting "pigs in a blanket, fry 'em like bacon" are extremist positions, not legitimate protests. Running speakers off campuses and out of public forums ("no platforming") and open harassment of legitimate media just trying to do their jobs (Mizzou 2015) are beyond any sane definition of "protest".

 

[Trakar]

Following the divide of those who voted for Trump's impeachment and those who didn't.

A Trump impeachment would most likely involve a significant bipartisan majority in both Houses of Congress, and might actually unify the nation moreso than any other recent event in American History,...at least temporarily.

 

[fuelair]

How Will Trump Change the Republican Party?

Put each of them on their backs, remove the soiled diaper and dispose of it properly, clean the republicker's private parts, powder and put on a replacement diaper. Repeat as necessary until all are ok.

Repeat as necessary.....

 

[jimbob]

So, fuelair, you are somewhat ambivalent towards the GOP, then?

 

[quixotecoyote]

Calling for "dead cops", chanting "pigs in a blanket, fry 'em like bacon" are extremist positions, not legitimate protests. Running speakers off campuses and out of public forums ("no platforming") and open harassment of legitimate media just trying to do their jobs (Mizzou 2015) are beyond any sane definition of "protest".

When the racist cops shooting unarmed black people get hung out to dry and disavowed by their organizations like your counterexamples did, then, maybe then, you will have a point.

But right now you are making excuses for them in a way that isn't happening on the other side.

 

[fuelair]

So, fuelair, you are somewhat ambivalent towards the GOP, then?

There is no ambivalence in my level of disapproval for them since the Republican Party died around 1980 and turned into republickers!!!!!

It would be fine with me if they did find themselves and become real Republicans again, but I see signs only of them getting worse and worse - heading for the full on Dark Side!!!!!

 

[Mark6]

There is some thought that the Republican Party is going through the same ideological crisis the Democrats went through in the 1980s. Back when a faction within the Democratic Party wanted things like guaranteed incomes for all Americans and cumulative voting in elections.

What is so particularly liberal/socialist about Cumulative voting?

 

[The Great Zaganza]

What is so particularly liberal/socialist about Cumulative voting?

it makes gerrymandering so much harder ... only a communist would want that to happen.

 

[newyorkguy]

What is so particularly liberal/socialist about Cumulative voting?

Thanks for trying to derail the thread.

My point was, back in the 1980s there was a fairly extreme faction within the Democratic Party that tried to force the party to support positions that did not have majority support even among Democrats. I think we are seeing, and have seen, the same thing happen in the GOP.

The push for cumulative voting by people within the Democratic Party thirty years ago was usually cited as a way to get more minority candidates elected. From your Wikipedia link:

Advocates of cumulative voting often argue that political and racial minorities deserve better representation. By concentrating their votes on a small number of candidates of their choice, voters in the minority can win some representation — for example, a like-minded grouping of voters that is 20% of a city would be well-positioned to elect one out of five seats.

Without going into the merits (or lack) of cumulative voting -- you can start a new thread if you feel moved to defend it -- it was an issue that, back at the end of the Reagan Era, just did not play well with most voters. It tended to make the Democrats less popular among the general electorate in much the same way, I think, that we see Trump reducing overall support for the Republican Party.

 

[Mark6]

Thanks for trying to derail the thread.

Wow, aren't you touchy today!

I know what cumulative voting is. I never heard that any faction of US Democratic Party ever advocated it. You mentioning it in the same sentence with guaranteed income (a very liberal position, at least back in 1980's) implied that CV was also a very liberal position which cost Democratic Party some support. As I said I never heard of it before, and genuinely do not see why CV is particularly liberal. The Great Zanzaga's response actually makes sense -- and if it is indeed the reason for CV being unpopular, it is pretty damning of American electorate in general.

 

[newyorkguy]

Advocates of cumulative voting often argue that political and racial minorities deserve better representation.

Racial minorities deserve better representation. Does that sound like something Republicans are going to be pushing for?

I am a registered Democrat. I recall sitting through a local community presentation early in Clinton's first term where some New York Dems were arguing for cumulative voting -- they were citing all the cities where blacks/Hispanics were the majority but the majority of elected officials were white -- and other Dems were arguing it was the wrong issue at the wrong time. I agreed with the latter as did most Democrats including, eventually, Bill Clinton.

This is from a column by Randall Kennedy written in 1993:

When President Clinton abandoned Lani Guinier, she became the latest in a string of jilted appointees dumped once controversy arose. Guinier, who was nominated as head of the Justice Department's civil rights division, was a respected civil rights lawer, legal theorist, and Friend of Bill, whom she has known since their days at Yale Law School. Why ultimately did he abandon her nomination?...

Guinier argues in favor of two broad reforms. One involves changes in the rules governing the selection of representatives; the second involves changes in the rules governing decision making by representatives. With respect to the first, Guinier recommends the creation of multi-member districts where representatives are chosen by cumulative voting. Link

 

[ChristianProgressive]

When the racist cops shooting unarmed black people get hung out to dry and disavowed by their organizations like your counterexamples did, then, maybe then, you will have a point.

But right now you are making excuses for them in a way that isn't happening on the other side.

Your problem is that when critically examined your examples of "racist cops" and "unarmed black people" don't stand up to scrutiny. Not that that stops the agitators. There are still people insisting the Michael Brown case was an example of police bigotry even after 3 different objective forensic investigations scientifically proved that he attacked the officer and tried to take his gun.

When your side stops crying "WOLF!" at every opportunity you might recover some credibility on your original claims.

Even then, there is ZERO justification for calling for assassination of police officers. NONE.

 

[ponderingturtle]

When the racist cops shooting unarmed black people get hung out to dry and disavowed by their organizations like your counterexamples did, then, maybe then, you will have a point.

But right now you are making excuses for them in a way that isn't happening on the other side.

Well if by that you mean they get them to cover up for them and get the universal support of their fellow officers until some unfortunate video comes out and ruins the reputation of heroic police officers then that is right.

 

[ChristianProgressive]

Racial minorities deserve better representation. Does that sound like something Republicans are going to be pushing for?

I am a registered Democrat. I recall sitting through a local community presentation early in Clinton's first term where some New York Dems were arguing for cumulative voting -- they were citing all the cities where blacks/Hispanics were the majority but the majority of elected officials were white -- and other Dems were arguing it was the wrong issue at the wrong time. I agreed with the latter as did most Democrats including, eventually, Bill Clinton.

This is from a column by Randall Kennedy written in 1993:

Cumulative voting would only work if there were cumulative representation as well. But that opens the process up for the charge of segregated politics, doesn't it?

Another question: would it also apply to party? I live in one of the most Rad-Con/Libertarian parts of MO. I effectively have NO representation at the State or Federal Congressional District levels. How would pooling my vote to elect a Democrat not from my district help me?

 

[ponderingturtle]

Your problem is that when critically examined your examples of "racist cops" and "unarmed black people" don't stand up to scrutiny. Not that that stops the agitators. There are still people insisting the Michael Brown case was an example of police bigotry even after 3 different objective forensic investigations scientifically proved that he attacked the officer and tried to take his gun.

When your side stops crying "WOLF!" at every opportunity you might recover some credibility on your original claims.

Even then, there is ZERO justification for calling for assassination of police officers. NONE.

Or people who think that just because there were settlements in the Tamir Rice, and Sandra Bland doesn't mean any of the police acted remotely improperly. And it is amazing how often body cams suddenly stop working right before a shooting. Down right remarkable.

 

[newyorkguy]

Cumulative voting would only work if there were cumulative representation as well. But that opens the process up for the charge of segregated politics, doesn't it?...

This whole line of discussion started because I wrote that possibly the Republicans will have to bite the bullet -- the way the Democrats once did -- and disown some of the extreme positions (and the candidates who make them) and become more moderate. I gave two examples of policies the Democrats had to back away from and one was cumulative voting. Someone picked up on that one statement and challenged it. I defended the accuracy of that at the same time calling it a derail.

I'm done with it in this thread. If anyone would like to start a new thread about cumulative voting, that would be fine.