How we decide who to save.

[Skeptic Ginger]

This article makes me so sad.

Elderly and abandoned, 85 Haitians await death

PORT-AU-PRINCE, Haiti – The old lady crawls in the dirt, wailing for her pills. The elderly man lies motionless as rats pick at his overflowing diaper.

There is no food, water or medicine for the 85 surviving residents of the Port-au-Prince Municipal Nursing Home, barely a mile (1 1/2 kilometers) from the airport where a massive international aid effort is taking shape.

"Help us, help us," 69-year-old Mari-Ange Levee begged Sunday, lying on the ground with a broken leg and ribs. A cluster of flies swarmed the open fracture in her skull.

One man has already died, and administrator Jean Emmanuel said more would follow soon unless water and food arrive immediately.

"I appeal to anybody to bring us anything, or others won't live until tonight,"

I understand there are too many people in need of help. And you'd like to think Haitians could at least protect these vulnerable people from the thieves and rats, even if they can't feed them or give them water. It's confusing from the article what the people surrounding these elderly are actually doing, but it doesn't sound like they are helping much.

Still you have to wonder why it is so much easier for rescue teams to show their stuff by digging people out of tons of rubble in massive efforts with dogs and modern equipment. Yet there are few stories of people helping the vulnerable like these abandoned nursing home residents.

And you have to wonder about all the hoopla over a couple heavy doses of morphine given the New Orleans critically ill hospital survivors when the remaining hospital staff had no way to help them and saw them suffering with little or no hope they'd survive.

 

[bookitty]

Numerous groups have raised millions of dollars to help the poor in Haiti. Not just now, after the quake, but for many years. At the same time, Haiti's biggest export is food. It's a sick irony, created by so many decades of private interest that it's nearly impossible to sort out blame.

But I have to wonder why these charities, especially those who give a sermon with every hand-out haven't purchased some of this farmland and turned it over to those who they are trying to help. Yes, socialism, evil, blah blah blah. How dare we even consider the idea of offering something to someone who hasn't "earned" it. Obviously if they wanted to work, they wouldn't be eating mud pies in the first place.

Sorry, I'm just so heartsick that only feeding these people in the long term seems rational.

 

[King of the Americas]

I am amazed at how unreachable disaster survivors are... Countless hundreds waving from their rooftops during Katrina, leap to mind.

For many of those rooftop rescue via Coastguard would have been too late. Many were rescued by average fishermen with their bass boats.

Unaffected Haitians HAVE to step up, to save their countrymen and the future of general civility.

 

[bluesjnr]

....snip

Unaffected Haitians HAVE to step up, to save their countrymen and the future of general civility.

Whilst I don't tar everybody with the same brush it seems like business as usual for some according to this report. So don't hold your breath.

Sporadic violence, looting and gang-related gunfire broke out under sweltering Caribbean skies even as thousands of US forces awaited deployment from a newly-arrived aircraft carrier sitting in the waters off the city.

And, sadly

A teenage boy working for the charity foundation of Wyclef Jean, the Haitian-born hip-hop superstar, was shot dead as he drove a truck-turned-hearse away from a cemetery.

Part of me says why bother? Part of me despairs. I'm sickened by this.

 

[bookitty]

I am amazed at how unreachable disaster survivors are... Countless hundreds waving from their rooftops during Katrina, leap to mind.

For many of those rooftop rescue via Coastguard would have been too late. Many were rescued by average fishermen with their bass boats.

Unaffected Haitians HAVE to step up, to save their countrymen and the future of general civility.

General civility. Seriously?

How can you even imply that they are not doing everything they can? Perhaps it simply isn't enough.

Exactly how are you defining unaffected? Those who have adequate drinking water? Food? Unbroken limbs? At what point are people unaffected enough to qualify as a threat to "general civility" under your well-fed opinion.

 

[Bikewer]

As a medic when I was in the army, and as a police officer with training in WMD incidents and mass-casualty situations I'm well familiar with the extremely tough decisions that must be made as part of triage.
1. Those that are in need of help, but will survive even if help is delayed.

2. Those that need immediate medical attention to survive.

3. Those that cannot be helped; who's injuries will be fatal anyway, and will take resources away from #1 and #2....

Not a pleasant business.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Numerous groups have raised millions of dollars to help the poor in Haiti. Not just now, after the quake, but for many years. At the same time, Haiti's biggest export is food. It's a sick irony, created by so many decades of private interest that it's nearly impossible to sort out blame.

But I have to wonder why these charities, especially those who give a sermon with every hand-out haven't purchased some of this farmland and turned it over to those who they are trying to help. Yes, socialism, evil, blah blah blah. How dare we even consider the idea of offering something to someone who hasn't "earned" it. Obviously if they wanted to work, they wouldn't be eating mud pies in the first place.

Sorry, I'm just so heartsick that only feeding these people in the long term seems rational.

That buying farmland and developing farm coops is an excellent idea.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

I am amazed at how unreachable disaster survivors are... Countless hundreds waving from their rooftops during Katrina, leap to mind.

For many of those rooftop rescue via Coastguard would have been too late. Many were rescued by average fishermen with their bass boats.

Unaffected Haitians HAVE to step up, to save their countrymen and the future of general civility.

It gives one mixed feelings seeing the looting and greed, then thinking what would I do if I thought fighting for food and water was the only way anyone was going to get it....

Mixed feelings....

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

General civility. Seriously?

How can you even imply that they are not doing everything they can? Perhaps it simply isn't enough.

Exactly how are you defining unaffected? Those who have adequate drinking water? Food? Unbroken limbs? At what point are people unaffected enough to qualify as a threat to "general civility" under your well-fed opinion.

From the reports I've heard so far, there are many areas where people are calm and have organized themselves and other areas where total chaos reigns.

But as to the unaffected areas, look at a map. 3/4 of the country was essentially unaffected by the earthquake itself.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

As a medic when I was in the army, and as a police officer with training in WMD incidents and mass-casualty situations I'm well familiar with the extremely tough decisions that must be made as part of triage.
1. Those that are in need of help, but will survive even if help is delayed.

2. Those that need immediate medical attention to survive.

3. Those that cannot be helped; who's injuries will be fatal anyway, and will take resources away from #1 and #2....

Not a pleasant business.

Triage decisions I have no issue with. My questions are more about how we decide to expend extraordinary effort to dig someone out of a collapsed building while to get there the teams likely walked past similar suffering and dying residents who were previously living in a destroyed nursing home and are now there lying in the dirt in filth and amid rats eating the feces out of unchanged diapers.

Where are the rescue teams for these people? Clearly they are in just as dire straights and clearly they are salvageable. At least one could provide them with a minimum of comfort if one expended the same amount of effort one is expending on digging people out of the rubble.

 

[The Central Scrutinizer]

This article makes me so sad.

Elderly and abandoned, 85 Haitians await death

I understand there are too many people in need of help. And you'd like to think Haitians could at least protect these vulnerable people from the thieves and rats, even if they can't feed them or give them water. It's confusing from the article what the people surrounding these elderly are actually doing, but it doesn't sound like they are helping much.

Still you have to wonder why it is so much easier for rescue teams to show their stuff by digging people out of tons of rubble in massive efforts with dogs and modern equipment. Yet there are few stories of people helping the vulnerable like these abandoned nursing home residents.

And you have to wonder about all the hoopla over a couple heavy doses of morphine given the New Orleans critically ill hospital survivors when the remaining hospital staff had no way to help them and saw them suffering with little or no hope they'd survive.

I bet before this thread is over, you'll find a way of blaming this on giant multi-national corporations.

 

[Policenaut]

Triage decisions I have no issue with. My questions are more about how we decide to expend extraordinary effort to dig someone out of a collapsed building while to get there the teams likely walked past similar suffering and dying residents who were previously living in a destroyed nursing home and are now there lying in the dirt in filth and amid rats eating the feces out of unchanged diapers.

Where are the rescue teams for these people? Clearly they are in just as dire straights and clearly they are salvageable. At least one could provide them with a minimum of comfort if one expended the same amount of effort one is expending on digging people out of the rubble.

What are they supposed to do? Take them where? Almost all the infrastructure is destroyed or unstable. The airport is clogged. The roads are clogged or unusable. The port is unusable to get in ships for evacuation or to take off cargo. In short there is no where to "take" people to and even if there was how many people need to be "taken" somewhere? Hundreds of thousands?

As to your earlier question the people on the streets can move and hopefully get to an area where there is food and water. People trapped in rubble are dying a slow, painful death and they can't help themselves.

 

[luchog]

I bet before this thread is over, you'll find a way of blaming this on giant multi-national corporations.

Mostly, it's a nation riddled with the culture of corruption from top to bottom, government and industry alike. Past asistance and relief efforts have been greatly hampered by the corrupt kleptocratic Haitian government.

 

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Mostly, it's a nation riddled with the culture of corruption from top to bottom, government and industry alike. Past asistance and relief efforts have been greatly hampered by the corrupt kleptocratic Haitian government.

Yes, you and I know that, but let's wait and see how it plays out.

 

[King of the Americas]

General civility. Seriously?

How can you even imply that they are not doing everything they can? Perhaps it simply isn't enough.

Exactly how are you defining unaffected? Those who have adequate drinking water? Food? Unbroken limbs? At what point are people unaffected enough to qualify as a threat to "general civility" under your well-fed opinion.

Hit part of an ant mound with a stick, and watch the results...

Within seconds the WHOLE mound is engaged in an effort to defend and make repairs.

They DON'T organize a small committee to investigate the damage, and then report back to a governing authority, where the submit a written request for supplies. EVERYONE drops what they are doing, and starts to defend or make repairs.

Many of those saved during Katrina were served not by official FEMA or the Coastguard, but by their fellow citizens not so badly affected. People who had boats.

*I didn't mean for my original response to sound as harsh toward Haitians as it did... I only really meant that this was as opportunity to create a united Haiti.

 

[King of the Americas]

It gives one mixed feelings seeing the looting and greed, then thinking what would I do if I thought fighting for food and water was the only way anyone was going to get it....

Mixed feelings....

I'd like to think I wouldn't loot, during such a catastrophe. I am more of a 'together we can achieve', kinda guy. That said if you tried to take something from me and my own, I'd shoot you without thinking twice.

*I enjoyed the idea of "The Colony" by Discover. I thought the scavenging/raiding episode was especially insightful.

 

[Magyar]

It gives one mixed feelings seeing the looting and greed, then thinking what would I do if I thought fighting for food and water was the only way anyone was going to get it....

Mixed feelings....

I have been thinking about this as well and I think that there are 2 groups of people

1) the far far smaller group - are the greedy, opportunist. These people are either a) were in the area of the devastation but came through unscathed b) were close enough to be part of the devastation but only in the outskirts. In either case they are healthy enough to to take advantage BUT most of these people were already criminals or at least walking the edge. They are NOT your "normal" nice people caught up in a tragedy.

2) and I think this is the vast majority of those who loot and fight are the "normal" people caught up in the mess but for what ever reason they abandon the think veneer of social standards and become the human animal we all are. You see this all the time in the mentality of the crowd in riots and sporting events, in situations where people do things they would NEVER do on their own but do because they are with a group or crowd.

 

[leonAzul]

Triage decisions I have no issue with. My questions are more about how we decide to expend extraordinary effort to dig someone out of a collapsed building while to get there the teams likely walked past similar suffering and dying residents who were previously living in a destroyed nursing home and are now there lying in the dirt in filth and amid rats eating the feces out of unchanged diapers.

Where are the rescue teams for these people? Clearly they are in just as dire straights and clearly they are salvageable. At least one could provide them with a minimum of comfort if one expended the same amount of effort one is expending on digging people out of the rubble.

You need to be better informed of the geography involved. The only way in to the heart of the city is through the port, to the West. The neighborhood in question is to the North of P-a-P with several mountains in between.

Help may come sooner from Saint Marc, if they can patch up their own and get organized.

Anything from Les Cayes, Aquin, Camp Perrin, or Jeremie is going to have to wait a good while: the epicenter was due West of P-a-P knocking out all access to the the Southwest.

 

[Cainkane1]

This article makes me so sad.

Elderly and abandoned, 85 Haitians await death

I understand there are too many people in need of help. And you'd like to think Haitians could at least protect these vulnerable people from the thieves and rats, even if they can't feed them or give them water. It's confusing from the article what the people surrounding these elderly are actually doing, but it doesn't sound like they are helping much.

Still you have to wonder why it is so much easier for rescue teams to show their stuff by digging people out of tons of rubble in massive efforts with dogs and modern equipment. Yet there are few stories of people helping the vulnerable like these abandoned nursing home residents.

And you have to wonder about all the hoopla over a couple heavy doses of morphine given the New Orleans critically ill hospital survivors when the remaining hospital staff had no way to help them and saw them suffering with little or no hope they'd survive.

Captain Jack Finklebaum my good jewish friend and atheist mentor once said that a society should be judged by the way it treats its dissenters and helpless people. Haiti is not a good society. I'm sure most of them are decent enough but to allow this sort of thing to happen to elderly people is barbaric.

 

[bookitty]

Hit part of an ant mound with a stick, and watch the results...

Within seconds the WHOLE mound is engaged in an effort to defend and make repairs.

They DON'T organize a small committee to investigate the damage, and then report back to a governing authority, where the submit a written request for supplies. EVERYONE drops what they are doing, and starts to defend or make repairs.

Many of those saved during Katrina were served not by official FEMA or the Coastguard, but by their fellow citizens not so badly affected. People who had boats.

*I didn't mean for my original response to sound as harsh toward Haitians as it did... I only really meant that this was as opportunity to create a united Haiti.

My response was overly harsh as well, please accept my apologies for that.

The people outside the affected areas can do very little. They can not bring enough food/water, so being there puts an additional strain on outside resources.

The population of Port-au-Prince was 700,000 before the quake. Between 50,000 - 100,000 are believed dead or missing, tens of thousands are injured. Everyone in the affected area has lost someone.

We have the news to let us know about the old-age home. Very few people within the quake zone have any means of getting information. There might be 1000 people who would drop everything to help but they just don't know about it. And everywhere they look there is something else to do.

The people in that article may have been helped by its publication. If not, they are dead and dying. This is so painful. We wonder how people can be so heartless. "If I were there..." So much helplessness.

But Haiti isn't unique. Everywhere in the world are people who live so close the edge of starvation that the slightest change can cause desperation and desperate acts. Many of these people, like the Haitians, live in areas rich with resources that are being exported. Sometimes it is their own government, sometimes it is foreign interests.

What can we do? Not much. At this point, there are numerous charities that feed the poor or encourage small local businesses. There are none that focus on getting native resources back into the hands of the people.