How Torture Helped Win WWII

[IQ testing soldiers to send the dumbest onto the beaches of Normandy[/QUOTE]

We had an elderly man who substitute taught at my school where I work. When 'Saving Private Ryan' came out, we had a discussion at lunch about it.

He landed at Normandy on Day 5. We were asking about the accuracy of the movie. He felt that Tom Hank's character had too high a rank for the first wave. He said they never would have sent a Captain into something like that. Maybe later in the day, but not in the morning.

He claimed that they started assembling units for the invasion about 18 months prior. He said they took every problem/malcontent/criminal soldier and put them in those first wave units. In short he said, "they took the toughest seargant and the toughest lieutenant they could find and gave them 100 idiots and taught them how to shoot." He went on to add, "the IQ of the US army went up 10 points of June 6, 1944". Harsh!

This man doesn't live here anymore and I don't know if he is even still alive.
 
cbish said:
[IQ testing soldiers to send the dumbest onto the beaches of Normandy
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We had an elderly man who substitute taught at my school where I work. When 'Saving Private Ryan' came out, we had a discussion at lunch about it.

He landed at Normandy on Day 5. We were asking about the accuracy of the movie. He felt that Tom Hank's character had too high a rank for the first wave. He said they never would have sent a Captain into something like that. Maybe later in the day, but not in the morning.

He claimed that they started assembling units for the invasion about 18 months prior. He said they took every problem/malcontent/criminal soldier and put them in those first wave units. In short he said, "they took the toughest seargant and the toughest lieutenant they could find and gave them 100 idiots and taught them how to shoot." He went on to add, "the IQ of the US army went up 10 points of June 6, 1944". Harsh!

This man doesn't live here anymore and I don't know if he is even still alive.[/QUOTE]

He's talking nonsense. The 5th Ranger Battalion was the first wave at Omaha Beach, not a bunch of yahoos but elite trained assault troops. Force B was let by Captain Ralph Goranson and Force C was led by Lieutenant Colonel Max Schneider. They were supplemented by the lead elements of the 1st Infantry Division which was the most experienced Infantry Division in the US Army, having been fighting in North Africa.

In addition, the second wave at Omaha Beach was the 29th Infantry Division and the remainder of the 1st Infantry Division.

The CO of the 1st Infantry Division - Clarence Huebner (probably a Major General at the time) and the CO of the 29th Division - General Norman Cota, were both in the second wave.

Cota is credited with inventing the Rangers motto, as when he arrived on the beach he found most of the first wave pinned down amongst the beach obstacles. He met up with Max Schneider of the 5th Rangers and asked "Which outfit is this?" To which the answer came "Fifth Rangers!" Then Cota gave his now immortal reply: “Well, goddamn it then, Rangers, lead the way!”

At the same time the 2nd Rangers were attacking Point du Hoc, being led by Lieutenant Colonel James Rudder, who was wounded twice during the action.

Meanwhile at Utah Beach, Brigadier General Theodore Roosevelt Jr - eldest brother of the President, was in the first wave landing as Executive Officer of the 4th Infantry Division. He was first off his landing craft.

Also included in the first wave at Utah were two Lieutenant Colonels and a full Colonel - James Van Fleet. The CO of the 4th ID came ashore in the second or third wave.
 
gumboot said:
He's talking nonsense. The 5th Ranger Battalion was the first wave at Omaha Beach, not a bunch of yahoos but elite trained assault troops. Force B was let by Captain Ralph Goranson and Force C was led by Lieutenant Colonel Max Schneider. They were supplemented by the lead elements of the 1st Infantry Division which was the most experienced Infantry Division in the US Army, having been fighting in North Africa.

In addition, the second wave at Omaha Beach was the 29th Infantry Division and the remainder of the 1st Infantry Division.

The CO of the 1st Infantry Division - Clarence Huebner (probably a Major General at the time) and the CO of the 29th Division - General Norman Cota, were both in the second wave.

Cota is credited with inventing the Rangers motto, as when he arrived on the beach he found most of the first wave pinned down amongst the beach obstacles. He met up with Max Schneider of the 5th Rangers and asked "Which outfit is this?" To which the answer came "Fifth Rangers!" Then Cota gave his now immortal reply: “Well, goddamn it then, Rangers, lead the way!”

At the same time the 2nd Rangers were attacking Point du Hoc, being led by Lieutenant Colonel James Rudder, who was wounded twice during the action.

Meanwhile at Utah Beach, Brigadier General Theodore Roosevelt Jr - eldest brother of the President, was in the first wave landing as Executive Officer of the 4th Infantry Division. He was first off his landing craft.

Also included in the first wave at Utah were two Lieutenant Colonels and a full Colonel - James Van Fleet. The CO of the 4th ID came ashore in the second or third wave.
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One can only hope that cbish's substitute teacher was not assigned to his history class. As far as the Ranger's motto, it dates back to Maj. Robert Rodgers of Rodger's Rangers during the French & Indian War.

There was the ASTP (Army Specialized Training Program) better known as "All Safe To Peace." These were draftees with intellectual credentials assigned to college programs to educate engineers/scientists, but its true purpose was to prevent a brain drain from ground units that would suffer high casualties.
 
No actually he was a Chemistry teacher.

Anywho. Even if it wasn't true, it shows that even while it was happening, those ideas were floating around by those who were there.
 
Puppycow said:
A little historical perspective
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Aside from the objections to the history (as covered by many posters in this thread), I have this comment: I assume you mean this to be a historical perspective on the current issue of torture that occurred during the Bush administration. If so, arguing that you achieved some good end does nothing to make the acts not criminal.

The example I keep using is that I could say that I robbed the bank to use the money for a needed surgery for a loved one. That noble end is no defense for the crime of bank robbery. At best, I could plead with the judge to take into account as a mitigating circumstance when it's time to pass sentence.

ingoa said:
Without having a direct source:

The axis powers tortured fore sure more. Does it mean that they won? I will complain to my history teacher.:jaw-dropp
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Good point.

If we're using WWII as a sample, there is certainly no positive correlation between committing torture and success in the war. If anything, the correlation tends to be the other way around.
 
JoeTheJuggler said:
Aside from the objections to the history (as covered by many posters in this thread), I have this comment: I assume you mean this to be a historical perspective on the current issue of torture that occurred during the Bush administration. If so, arguing that you achieved some good end does nothing to make the acts not criminal.

The example I keep using is that I could say that I robbed the bank to use the money for a needed surgery for a loved one. That noble end is no defense for the crime of bank robbery. At best, I could plead with the judge to take into account as a mitigating circumstance when it's time to pass sentence.



Good point.

If we're using WWII as a sample, there is certainly no positive correlation between committing torture and success in the war. If anything, the correlation tends to be the other way around.
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But you said:

JoeTheJuggler said:
I think you're asking to argue whether the nuking of 2 civilian cities in Japan was justified. I don't think it was. However, that's another topic and really doesn't belong on this thread, I think.
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So you even deny that the A-Bombs had a positive correlation to why Japan surrendered?
 
Cicero said:
One can only hope that cbish's substitute teacher was not assigned to his history class. As far as the Ranger's motto, it dates back to Maj. Robert Rodgers of Rodger's Rangers during the French & Indian War.
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I'm always leery of any history or social studies taught from a personal perspective. Aside from high-ranking people involved in the plans and decisions, I suspect that most of the people involved in D-Day really didn't know the details of the plan. I think the substitute teacher was repeating gossip and speculation he probably heard from his comrades in arms, but not anything from anyone in the know.
 
Cicero said:
So you even deny that the A-Bombs had a positive correlation to why Japan surrendered?
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Really there are plenty of threads on that topic, and I've offered my opinions on them. This thread is about torture.

ETA: I just noticed, you lifted that quote from another thread that was also about torture and not about Hiroshima and Nagasaki. At any rate, this thread too isn't about Hiroshima and Nagasaki. I don't think I need to go over yet again the definition of torture and show that Hiroshima & Nagasaki don't fit that definition. (The victims of the bombs were not in our custody, for one thing. The intentional infliction of severe pain was not for the purpose of getting information, a confession or as punishment, for another.)
 
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Cicero said:
So you even deny that the A-Bombs had a positive correlation to why Japan surrendered?
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Right after both bombs were dropped, the military attempted a coup against the emperor to prevent him from broadcasting a surrender statement. Were it not for the actions of a single member of the Imperial household, they would have succeeded, and kept the war going despite Japan being nuked twice.
 
ANTPogo said:
Right after both bombs were dropped, the military attempted a coup against the emperor to prevent him from broadcasting a surrender statement. Were it not for the actions of a single member of the Imperial household, they would have succeeded, and kept the war going despite Japan being nuked twice.
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I have never seen anyone use the Kyūjō Incident as a argument for not dropping the A-Bombs on Japan. Probably for good reason since it only further demonstrates that invading the homeland would result in major American casualties.
 
Cicero said:
One can only hope that cbish's substitute teacher was not assigned to his history class. As far as the Ranger's motto, it dates back to Maj. Robert Rodgers of Rodger's Rangers during the French & Indian War.
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No, Robert Ranger's 28 "Rules of Ranging" are used today in modified form by the 75th Ranger Regiment, and they also inspired the 19 standing orders of all US Special Forces, but the Rangers Motto "Rangers Lead the Way" was created on Omaha Beach.
 
gumboot said:
No, Robert Ranger's 28 "Rules of Ranging" are used today in modified form by the 75th Ranger Regiment, and they also inspired the 19 standing orders of all US Special Forces, but the Rangers Motto "Rangers Lead the Way" was created on Omaha Beach.
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Actually, Cota said:


"Well, goddamn it!, Rangers, get up and lead the way!" not “Well, goddamn it then, Rangers, lead the way!”

This may have been the official moment the motto (a condensed version of Cota's exclamation), was adopted by the modern Army Rangers, but to suggest that Maj.Rodgers did not utter these words "Rangers, lead the way!" hundreds of years earlier is like saying Paris Hilton first said "That's hot!"
 
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Cicero said:
Actually, Cota said:


"Well, goddamn it!, Rangers, get up and lead the way!" not “Well, goddamn it then, Rangers, lead the way!”

This may have been the official moment the motto (a condensed version of Cota's exclamation), was adopted by the modern Army Rangers, but to suggest that Maj.Rodgers did not utter these words hundreds of years earlier is like saying Paris Hilton first said "That's hot!"
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Well I doubt he did say those words because "goddamn it" was hardly common parlance in the 18th Century. Also, Rogers was a Ranger. The whole point is Cota was telling the Ranger CO what to do. There's a long standing tradition in the military that the official order for an officer telling their own men to advance is "Follow me" (the whole point being officers should lead from the front).

Anyway, I was responding to what you claimed. You claimed the motto dated back to Roger's Rangers. It doesn't. It dates back to Omaha Beach. There's no dispute over that fact. There's a myriad of different variations of what Cota's exact orders were, but they definitely contained telling the Rangers to "lead the way", and the Rangers definitely then adopted that maxim as their motto. And it was definitely not a Ranger motto prior to that moment.

The actual motto of Roger's Rangers was "In Boldness Lies Safety".
 
gumboot said:
Well I doubt he did say those words because "goddamn it" was hardly common parlance in the 18th Century. Also, Rogers was a Ranger. The whole point is Cota was telling the Ranger CO what to do. There's a long standing tradition in the military that the official order for an officer telling their own men to advance is "Follow me" (the whole point being officers should lead from the front).
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Come on. The only part of the quote that is germane to Major Rodgers is "Rangers lead the way." Except on the beaches of Normandy, officers were not the ones blowing holes in the wire and obstructions with Bangalore torpedoes. In Cota's sector, it was Corporal Gale Beccue of Ranger B Company along with a private that lead the way with Bangalore torpedos so officers could follow. Of course the 1st Infantry Division, whose motto "No Mission Too Difficult, No Sacrifice Too Great—Duty First” didn't need any coaxing.

Anyway, I was responding to what you claimed. You claimed the motto dated back to Roger's Rangers. It doesn't. It dates back to Omaha Beach. There's no dispute over that fact. There's a myriad of different variations of what Cota's exact orders were, but they definitely contained telling the Rangers to "lead the way", and the Rangers definitely then adopted that maxim as their motto. And it was definitely not a Ranger motto prior to that moment.
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It 's not possible that Major Rodgers ever said "Rangers lead the way?" The modern Ranger motto may have originated from the order given by non-Ranger, General Cota, but the original sentiment is easily a declaration uttered by the founder of the unit, Major Rodgers. Roger's Rangers were always leading the way in the 18th Century. While Rangers lead the way on Pointe du Hoc, the Big Red 1 was the first on the beaches of Normandy on D-Day. It was the Big Red 1 that drove inland and cleared a beachhead for supplies and troops.

Another quote attributed to Cota is, "Rangers, lead the way off this beach before we're all killed." Cota's remarks to the 116th are included in "The Longest Day," but not his remarks to the Ranger unit.

C Company 2nd Ranger Infantry Battalion landed two minutes after the first wave. So here they followed, not lead.

16th Infantry Regiment, 1st Division, T/Sgt. Phillip Streczyk knocked out the fortifications at the east side of Exit E-1. Lt. John Spalding, 16th Inf, 1st Division, documented that this was the first platoon of the 16th to hit the top.

The actual motto of Roger's Rangers was "In Boldness Lies Safety".
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Many mottos followed the sentiment of "No Guts, No Glory," or..... "Who Dares Wins."
 
aggle-rithm said:
In a way, we all lost the war.

But in another, more accurate way, we cleaned their freakin' clocks, man!
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Actually, the Brits really lost the war. While Japan and West Germany prospered after their defeat in WWII as the result of American aid, GB lost colonies and didn't enjoy any monetary fruits of victory.
 
Well, the UK government has finally paid it's last instalment of Lend Lease (this century).

Given that empires are not a particularly good idea, stopping the Axis powers was a pretty good use of the British Empire*


*Not an entirely original thought...
 
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