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How to spot a rookie skeptic

Just saying that it's fine to be skeptical about God's existence, but the minute you express certainty about his existence or non-existence you are not being skeptical, you are expressing faith in something that is unknowable.
The god that the majority of people in the world claim to believe in does not exist.

Your claim only makes sense if the word "god" is defined as "anything that could exist".

People do not say they believe in a god that is "anything" they believe in god or gods that have specific definitions and claims made about them.
 
The god that the majority of people in the world claim to believe in does not exist.

I believe that it is highly, highly unlikely that the god that any particular creed on Earth believes in exists. But it is unknown and unknowable. I mean, suppose some dude came down on a cloud wearing a white robe and claimed to be God and had incredible magical talents--could cause a plague of locusts where none existed moments before, or something similarly biblical, would you suddenly believe in him? I wouldn't, I'd just wonder how incredible the technology must be to make that happen. But I'd also admit that this certainly made the possibility that he was God a little higher.
 
I believe that it is highly, highly unlikely that the god that any particular creed on Earth believes in exists. But it is unknown and unknowable. I mean, suppose some dude came down on a cloud wearing a white robe and claimed to be God and had incredible magical talents--could cause a plague of locusts where none existed moments before, or something similarly biblical, would you suddenly believe in him? I wouldn't, I'd just wonder how incredible the technology must be to make that happen. But I'd also admit that this certainly made the possibility that he was God a little higher.
Of course I would believe in him, my skepticism means I'm happy to change my mind when presented with new evidence.
 
Of course I would believe in him, my skepticism means I'm happy to change my mind when presented with new evidence.
I was thinking this just the other day.
You die and end up facing the Pearly Gates.

Do you get in?
I say yes, as the evidence is unarguable now that god exists, so an atheist is now a bleever, repents (based on the new evidence) and enters heaven (as god is all forgiving for the genuinely repentant).

Literally best of both worlds, being an atheist.
 
I believe that it is highly, highly unlikely that the god that any particular creed on Earth believes in exists. But it is unknown and unknowable. I mean, suppose some dude came down on a cloud wearing a white robe and claimed to be God and had incredible magical talents--could cause a plague of locusts where none existed moments before, or something similarly biblical, would you suddenly believe in him? I wouldn't, I'd just wonder how incredible the technology must be to make that happen. But I'd also admit that this certainly made the possibility that he was God a little higher.
As I have said before, if a real god does genuinely exist, then they already know exactly what kind of evidence that they need to present to me in order to convince me that they are real. Their evidence will be perfect and indisputable.
 
I was thinking this just the other day.
You die and end up facing the Pearly Gates.

Do you get in?
I say yes, as the evidence is unarguable now that god exists, so an atheist is now a bleever, repents (based on the new evidence) and enters heaven (as god is all forgiving for the genuinely repentant).

Literally best of both worlds, being an atheist.


Reverse Pascal Wager?


Norm
 
As I have said before, if a real god does genuinely exist, then they already know exactly what kind of evidence that they need to present to me in order to convince me that they are real. Their evidence will be perfect and indisputable.

Depends on the religion. Not all god definitions that people actually believe in have an all powerful, all knowing god.

It is actually one of the reasons we can discount the existence of the god the RCs or CofEs believe in - we are meant to have all the evidence we need to believe in god. Since many of us don't then their god as they define it doesn't exist.
 
Depends on the religion. Not all god definitions that people actually believe in have an all powerful, all knowing god.

It is actually one of the reasons we can discount the existence of the god the RCs or CofEs believe in - we are meant to have all the evidence we need to believe in god. Since many of us don't then their god as they define it doesn't exist.
True.

And I note here that the topic has now drifted almost completely from skepticism to atheism.
 
Another rookie move is to assume that debunking one idea cannot be done without promoting a different one.
 
True.

And I note here that the topic has now drifted almost completely from skepticism to atheism.


That seems to be more a USA thing, the two are entwined in perceptions in the USA, which is why I think we often see "skeptic" used in a personally negative manner from the USA folk. In the UK we've had a long tradition of even CofE Bishops being public about their skepticism of the bible and church so we don't have quite the same strong association that skeptic = atheist.
 
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What are some of the habits of a rookie skeptic?

Does he call out every logical fallacy he sees?

Is he reflexively anti-government and does he frequently spit uncompelling truisms about government corruption?

Does he think nobody can say for sure if a falling tree in some remote island makes a sound?
Rookies tend to think skeptics are all male.
 
Rookies tend to think skeptics are all male.
Oh, wow, I used to think that, come to think of it. I spent a few years as a skeptic before I joined this board, but I didn't know I was one, because in my mind, skeptics were basically all old, bearded men. Either that, or the type of people who drift around the internet mindlessly hurling insults at "believers".

The only exception to those stereotypes I knew of was this one German astrophysicist dude I was a co-moderator with on a forum, and his day job was working on Cassini, and on the forum he debunked all of the antigravity, perpetual motion, and infinite energy woo. I saw him as so, well, astronomically out of my intellectual league, it never occurred to me that I was "like him" in any way, shape or form.
 
How would you tell if someone is a rookie or not? Speaking of making assumptions about individuals, and all that.
 
How would you tell if someone is a rookie or not? Speaking of making assumptions about individuals, and all that.

Sometimes they give clues; "Hey guys I just deconverted from [insert woo here] and look at this crazy stuff", and often they think they've come across something profound or some other overzealous behavior.

Maybe repeating truisms that add little to the discussion. "Goverment is corrup!"
 
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First of all, the government bashing, and especially claiming (*) to want less government, has nothing to do with being a sceptic or not. It's a pretty USA-specific right-wing trope. And given that it's more associated with bible-thumpers and some freeman-on-the-land/prepper/whatever wooists than anyone else, I'm curious what confusion of mind leads you to think it's a sceptic trait or trope.

(*) And I say "claim", because a lot of the same people who claim to want less government, are ok with high miltary spending (which, surprise, is government too), or with using taxpayer money to enforce who can marry whom, or to police abortions, or to crack on drugs, or with increasing border guards or even building a great wall, or making sure what genitals go with what gender. (Presumably having to show them to some toilet guard too, to make sure nobody the wrong biological sex goes into the wrong toilet booth, where nobody else would see it anyway.)

At any rate, it seems to me like it's orthogonal to being a sceptic or not. You can arrive to it just as well, if not better, by believing some conspiracy theory or other woo, as via some kind of convoluted sceptic-like rationale.


Second, deconverting too is rather orthogonal to being a sceptic or not.

For a start, a lot of people deconvert from, say, Xianity only to join an even more woo cult. Like, start wearing a pentagram and droning about how Wicca is an ancient religion, never mind that it's less than a century "ancient". Or join the Kemet Orthodoxy (Kemet=ancient Egyptian name of Egypt), presumably so named because it bears no resemblance whatsoever with what we know from all those scrolls and inscriptions about what the ancient Egyptians actually believed. Or some pseudo-Eastern guru.

Also, you can deconvert from Xianity and jolly well keep other pre-existing woo. Just stopping believing in one woo, doesn't mean one suddenly drops all of them. E.g., I know one guy who's totally not into religion any more, but still believes that the world is run by some cabal of people so rich, that they're not even on the Top X lists of the richest people. Apparently they slid right off the list UPWARDS. Or a couple of otherwise fine gals who totally aren't into religion any more, but still believe in clairvoyance and whatnot.


Third, and actually the root of the above, virtually EVERYONE is a sceptic to some extent. If I told even the most woowoo-ridden nutter that by decree of the galactic Emperor they should pay their taxes to me, they'd ask for evidence. They suspend that scepticism for a couple of things they really WANT to believe (such as that Jesus is their kid's personal crossing guard) or to disbelieve (e.g., that their doctor really means it when he says stop smoking), but will jolly well ask for evidence for almost anything else.

Becoming a full time sceptic, so to speak, is nothing more than trying to avoid your own blind spots. Usually via applying a more rigorous logical framework, but it's not the only way.


Fourth, and actually I think the root of the confusion that spawns threads like this, is that most people don't really understand what scepticism is when others do it. They expect it to play out like the Sceptic archetype in novels and movies, which is really just a narrative trope. If you need to explain something, you don't explain it to the audience, you explain it to a character. And if it's hard to swallow or needs a lot more explaining, you use the Sceptic, which is a sockpuppet that raises some weak-sauce objections, but is immediately convinced when the hero explains it. Or will be proven wrong in the end.

So some people seem to expect that "sceptic" IRL means the same thing: someone who just asks some questions, and then is totally convinced by their hare-brained woowoo when they explain it.

And when sceptics are, surprise, sceptical and don't swallow the BS, or worse yet, call fallacies, here come the threads complaining about what's wrong with sceptics. Or why the guy who just called BS isn't a REAL sceptic, but some pseudo or rookie sceptic.

It's a coping mechanism, really :p
 
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Another rookie move is to assume that debunking one idea cannot be done without promoting a different one.

It has been called The Perry Mason syndrome.
From the TV seresi where every week Mason proved his client was innocent by discovering who the real murderer was..generally in court.
Needless to say, that does not happen often in real life. Most acquittal in murder cases are gained by simply proving your client could not have done it; unmasking the real killer seldom happens in a murder defense.
 

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