How to Save Terry Schiavo...

(kookbreaker)
You mean like when those far out progressive hippies, Newt Gingrich and Pat Robertson, tried to get an Axe wielding murderess off of death row?

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Karla Faye Tucker, who supposedly became a born again Christian in prison and finally was put to death *years* after committing the heinous act? And who Bush would not grant clemency to while he was the then governor of Texas? I'm sure anyone interested could read all about it on Google.
 
Well, I'd seen enough when some guy was on the telly saying "what does he hold on to her for anyhow, let her be a ward of the state, he's already got a new woman and all that".

I find the whole situation excreable.
 
Re: Re: Re: How to Save Terry Schiavo...

Skeptic said:
Keeping her alive is expensive. But using this argument, then it's quite all right for me (for example) to take all the money in your bank account and give it to poor people in the third world, since it would do more good there.
Now that's what I call reaching. I'm not sure where you got the idea that I favored worldwide communism. That said, the money in my account is going towards a useful purpose, namely the care and feeding of my family.

If the idea that it is too expensive to keep her alive and the money could be used to a better purpose is good enough to let her die, the result would be that, pretty soon, nobody going into a hospital would know whether or not he will not be conveniently bumped off
It's a wild reach to equate a permanent vegetable with the average hospital goer. This slope is not merely slippery -- it's crisco'ed.

But if you would check, you'd find out that most of these hard-working church-going Americans--even those with expensive-to-treat diseases--are AGAINST letting Schiavo die. At least most of the polls on the issue say so.
See the polls that Cleon referenced. (Not that I think it matters one way or the other.)

But the non-sentient vegetative shells of human beings ARE the most vulnerable. It is those whose life are considered most worthless, who are described in the most derisive terms, who ARE the most vulnerable--almost by definition, since the more worthless your life is considered, the more likely it is to be snuffed out for some greater good.
I understand and even appreciate this viewpoint, though I don't agree in this instance. In my view, a person who is a permanent vegetable is sub-vulnerable; the cows are out of the barn.

I have no problem if (going forward) Florida revises the right-to-die law so that if there is not something in writing from a vegetative patient, and a family member has the financial resources to keep the patient alive, this would trump spousal heresay.
 
Skeptic, I'm shocked at you.

The rule of law is winning here. The Florida judges, as well as SCOTUS, have repeated and correctly ruled that they either have no jurisdiction, or that it has been made clear what Terri would have wanted.


But I didn't SAY anything about the courts or their decision. I explicitly, for example, said that I do not consider her husband evil--surely I would not consider the courts, who merely cuncurred with his decision, worse than him?

My criticism is not of Mr. Schiavo or the courts. My criticism of those who consider this decision--whatever its legal status--as a good thing, the morally (as opposed to legal) thing to do.

I'm disappointed in those GOP lawmakers who attempted an "end-run" around the Constitution and existing law.

I'm not so sure I agree with you here. There is a balance of power: all three branches can under certain conditions "upend" the other two. A court can rule a law unconstitional. A governor or president can veto a law. The legistlature can change the law to overcome such executive and judicial objections.

In many cases, while the rationale for each one of the cases is given in "legalese", that branch is making a moral point. For example, when the SC ruled segregation unconstitutional, it was in reality a moral point it was making in banning it--when all precedent, of course, agreed that segregation is legal. That was the right thing to do. Presidents often vetoes bills they considered immoral or just against their worldview.

The legistlature has the same right--if enough of the legistlature feel it is a moral outrage that a certain outcome would be legal (to repeat I am not blaming the court for deciding this way--it has every right to change the law to try and cause a different outcome.

It would be a defeat for the rule of law if the legistlature (or governor), say, had refused to obey the courts EVEN AFTER the new legistlature didn't cause the desired outcome. But this is not the case. Neither president, nor governor, Bush will send troops to re-insert Schiavo's tube, for example.

I find it very odd that the excercise of its balance-of-power rights is seens as "bad" or even "illegal" when done by the legistlature, while the opposite--the courts ruling a law unconstitutional--is considered wise and wondeful in most cases. Surely both can be either right or wrong depending on the circumstances. In this case I think the legistlature did the right thing. Since it was acting perfectly legally, it had not done any harm to the rule of law; it merely disagreed with the courts.

It seems to me that for many people, "the rule of law" means "agreeing and not doing anything against what the courts say". That is OFTEN the case, i.e. it is the case for private individuals, but the legistlature and executive branch are given legal ways to disagree and overturn the courts' decisions precisely because they are not private individuals, but part of the two other branches of government.

I suspect--although I cannot prove--that this excessive deference to the courts, verging on the desire to have "government by judges" in the case of some people, is due to the belief that the judges (unlike those uncoth, silly members of Congress) are by nature intellectual, progressive, and therefore more likely to make the "correct" (i.e., liberal) decisions on which laws are consitutional and which are not.

This is a gross oversimplification of the SC's record and its purpose, of course, but that doesn't stop it from being a popular belief.
 
I asked this question before in one of the earlier Schiavo threads and didn't get an answer but I thought I'd ask it again because I thought it was interesting .

If the congress had really wanted to save Schiavo what could they have done? They wrote a somewhat ambiguous law which depending on your point of view attempted to get the tube reinserted by putting a federal judge in a position where he would have to order it reinserted or put a federal judge in the hot seat while he enforced the rule of law and deflected criticism from congress to himself.

But did the congress have any straightforward thing they could do to get the feeding tube reinserted? Same question for the executive branch?

Suppose congress passed a law that prevented a husband from being the final decision maker in cases like this. The Florida legislature attempted to pass a law like that but they couldn't get a majority. Could the federal government enforce a law like tht on the states? Generally the Federal Government controls state governments by threatening to withhold funds if they don't play along. Suppose they had done that in this case? Could they have forced Florida to pass the law that they failed to and thereby kept the feeding tube in?

Is it possible that the approach that was chosen by the congress was designed to maintain the fiction that they wanted to keep the feeding tube in while in fact they knew all along that it wouldn't and they didn't want to risk the political fallout of enacting a measure that in fact would have gotten the feeding tube reinserted?
 
This scares me, Dave. Sorry, but the LAST body who should be making these decisions is the Congress, who basically time and again have shown they answer to the mob, not reality.

Listening to Bill Manders on KKOH in Reno today, (while I was driving through Carson City on the way home, and dammit, I gotta do it again Monday), and the pure vitriol from this guy is enough to scare the sh** out of me. What blew me out, though, was the continued blasts like, "The guy's an adulterer, and he's out for the money, and this is not someone you trust with someone else's life."

Sorry, but from what I'm reading, the call that Terri's in a persistent vegetative state comes not from her creepy husband, but from court appointed guardians and trained neurologists who have experience in cases like these! Sorry, but this whole case is getting stranger and stranger.
 
I think you understood me Roadtoad, but just to make sure I wasn't advocating that the congress should do any such thing.

My point, if I had one, was that what they did may have been a cynical political ploy.

Essentially they ordered a federal court to review a state court decision in an area where the federal court would not previously have had jurisdiction and in an area where it seemed clear that the only possible applicable law was state law. So what was the court to do. Based on what I read it looked like the first judge read through all the findings of the previous trials and could not see any issues that were sufficiently likely to prevail that injunctive release was justified. Seems like a fairly likely decision from my point of view, one that congress could have reasonably forseen and yet the went through with the charade, because:
1. It was their only option.
2. It was the option with the level of risk and involvement they were willing to take on for an issue that they were far from enthusiastic to take ownership of.
 
davefoc said:
I think you understood me Roadtoad, but just to make sure I wasn't advocating that the congress should do any such thing.

My point, if I had one, was that what they did may have been a cynical political ploy.

Essentially they ordered a federal court to review a state court decision in an area where the federal court would not previously have had jurisdiction and in an area where it seemed clear that the only possible applicable law was state law. So what was the court to do. Based on what I read it looked like the first judge read through all the findings of the previous trials and could not see any issues that were sufficiently likely to prevail that injunctive release was justified. Seems like a fairly likely decision from my point of view, one that congress could have reasonably forseen and yet the went through with the charade, because:
1. It was their only option.
2. It was the option with the level of risk and involvement they were willing to take on for an issue that they were far from enthusiastic to take ownership of.

In other words, we're dealing with politics. Where it does not belong.
 
Re: Re: Re: How to Save Terry Schiavo...

Skeptic said:
And how much do you want to bet that the first on the "too expensive to keep alive" list would be precisely the poor and downtrodden, in whose name money is "saved" by not giving expensive treatments in the first place?

isn't it interesting that the left likes to compare Bush to Hitler, yet under hitler, the Nazi's advocated killing the "useless eaters", but Bush wants to keep them alive.

With the Schiavo case, the "progressive" camp once more showed how divorced it is from the morals of most Americans. Their argument is precisely your argument: can't those bible-thumping fools see that bumping her off is in their self-interest? Well, no; it's that most Americans take moral values, such as "thou shall not murder" seriously; the "progressive" camp lacks this ability. Which shows, once again, their moral imbecility.

Well said. I've said relatively the same on other threads here. The left hates to hear it. Goes against their indoctrinated dogma.
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: How to Save Terry Schiavo...

For the benefit of easycruise, who apparently missed this rejoinder to the statement of Skeptic's he/she quoted.

eta: To belabor the obvious, which seems necessary in some cases, this is meant as evidence that "most Americans" do not, in fact, support having that feeding tube reinserted, sanctity of life notwithstanding.

Cleon said:
Fox News says you're wrong. "Nearly six in ten Americans (59 percent) say that as Schiavo's guardian they would remove her feeding tube, while 24 percent would keep the tube inserted and 17 percent are uncertain which action they would take."

ABC says you're wrong. "The public, by 63 percent-28 percent, supports the removal of Schiavo's feeding tube, and by a 25-point margin opposes a law mandating federal review of her case."

CBS says you're wrong. "Of those polled, 66 percent said the tube should not be inserted compared to 27 percent who want it restored."
 
This scares me, Dave. Sorry, but the LAST body who should be making these decisions is the Congress, who basically time and again have shown they answer to the mob, not reality.

There is another name for "The Mob", roadtoad. It's known as "the people, when they disagree with me." If Congress is not allowed to excercise its right to overrule the courts by passing new laws, it in effect is made subordinate to the judiciary. And if something scares me more than this "mob" rule is the idea of a few unelected judges having absolute power over the laws of the land.
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: How to Save Terry Schiavo...

Cleon said:
Fox News says you're wrong. "Nearly six in ten Americans (59 percent) say that as Schiavo's guardian they would remove her feeding tube, while 24 percent would keep the tube inserted and 17 percent are uncertain which action they would take."

ABC says you're wrong. "The public, by 63 percent-28 percent, supports the removal of Schiavo's feeding tube, and by a 25-point margin opposes a law mandating federal review of her case."

CBS says you're wrong. "Of those polled, 66 percent said the tube should not be inserted compared to 27 percent who want it restored."
I heard Hannity talking yesterday about the lack of support Bush got for the Terry Schiavo bill. Whereas bad poll numbers for Kerry meant that Kerry was out of touch with America, bad poll numbers for Bush means that Bush is standing on principle despite public opinion.

If people didn't believe every word that man says, it would be rather ironic comedy.
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: How to Save Terry Schiavo...

TragicMonkey said:
For the benefit of easycruise, who apparently missed this rejoinder to the statement of Skeptic's he/she quoted.

eta: To belabor the obvious, which seems necessary in some cases, this is meant as evidence that "most Americans" do not, in fact, support having that feeding tube reinserted, sanctity of life notwithstanding.

Must be that same "silent majority" that was going to sweep Bush I to victory in 1992.
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: How to Save Terry Schiavo...

easycruise said:
isn't it interesting that the left likes to compare Bush to Hitler, yet under hitler, the Nazi's advocated killing the "useless eaters", but Bush wants to keep them alive.
No, he wants to keep Terry Schiavo alive. He seems fairly indifferent to the health care needs of the rest of America.

Note, for example, the focus on Social Security "crisis" rather than the more immediate crisis with Medicare/Medicade. Or, note also, the bill passed in Texas that allows hospitals to do the very same thing Michael Shiavo wants to do to Terry, if the patient has run out health insurance and various other criteria have been met. Note even further that the Terry Shiavo bill that Bush signed specifically says that it applies only to Terry Shiavo.

No, it obviously isn't Terry's worth as a human being that is motivating Bush, et al. (Unless Terry somehow has more worth as a human being than other human beings in her situation?) This is pure political pandering to various special interest groups without actually accomplishing anything, apparently at the expense of general public opinion.

The Democrats don't need to become more like the Republicans. The Republicans are becoming more like the Democrats. Oh, the irony.


edited 'cause of words
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: How to Save Terry Schiavo...

Upchurch said:
I heard Hannity talking yesterday about the lack of support Bush got for the Terry Schiavo bill. Whereas bad poll numbers for Kerry meant that Kerry was out of touch with America, bad poll numbers for Bush means that Bush is standing on principle despite public opinion.

Bill OReilly's replacement last night was talking about the polls, and how he knows what the polls say, but he has yet to talk to anyone who thinks the tube should be pulled.

He posed this as a question, in terms of "where are all these people." All I could see was, "tells us a lot about the type of people you talk to"
 
Re: Re: How to Save Terry Schiavo...

varwoche said:
>>Consider that in the US, there are children who are uninsured and not immunized. And inadequately fed.

There are Zero children who are uninsured. All children must be treated, even if at the hospital's expence, even if not "insured". Some are (safely) not immunized. None are inadequately fed. Name one (inadequately fed other than Terri Shiavo). Place that name right here: _____________.

Get your facts straight.




"....wasting money on non-sentient, vegetative shells of human beings. "

Who's money? Surely, not yours. Speaking about a "shell of a human being."
 
Originally posted by Furious [/i]

>>Michael has had little control over Terri's right to live or die since 1998. She's been a ward of the court since Michael started court proceeding to determine what Terri would have wanted

As legal guardian, Michael has had complete control over Terri, to the extent of not allowing any oral feeding, nor any therapy. Get your facts straight.
 
Rouser2 said:
Originally posted by Furious [/i]

>>Michael has had little control over Terri's right to live or die since 1998. She's been a ward of the court since Michael started court proceeding to determine what Terri would have wanted

As legal guardian, Michael has had complete control over Terri, to the extent of not allowing any oral feeding, nor any therapy. Get your facts straight.
um... Furious said that Michael has had little control over her right to live or die. That is true or she would have died many years ago. His ability to control other aspects of her life are unrelated to Furious's statement. I would say his facts (or at least that fact) are straight.
 
Upchurch said:
um... Furious said that Michael has had little control over her right to live or die. That is true or she would have died many years ago. His ability to control other aspects of her life are unrelated to Furious's statement. I would say his facts (or at least that fact) are straight.

That's correct. There is a court order to remove Terri's feeding tube and Michael cannot undo it because the court made the decision on Terri's behalf back in 1998.

You may argue the finer point that this was in a large part due to Michael's testimony and he did initiate the process to determine Terri's wishes, but Michael cannot simply walk away from the case and the Schindler's would get their wish to keep Terri alive.
 

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