How to reason with a schizophrenic?

[headcoat]

I have a friend who has been having escalating delusions, and it is pretty apparent he is schizophrenic; he refuses to accept that label or attempt to treat it.

He believes most people are telepathic and probing at his thoughts (or that his thoughts are being broadcast on radio or tv for entertainment). He also thinks he is being subjected to mind control technology that is conditioning his behavior. It has gotten so extreme that he attributes any random beeping noise as evidence of this. He also believes car honks and police sirens are synchronous with his thoughts - ie, when he thinks a certain thought, a person in a car hears it telepathically and honks his car for conditioning purposes. There's much more to this, but thats the general gist of it.

He swears by sources like this and this as affirmation of his persecution. Previously, he was a rational, critical thinker so perhaps there is a way to appeal to that side of him to make him see that his delusions arent true.

Getting him to a doctor is an impossibility - he has intense fear and hatred for them (claims they have conducted experiments on him in previous hospitalizations). Any way of alleviating some of his symptoms?

 

[Chris Haynes]

I'm sorry I cannot give you much help... I did read this very interesting book:
I am Not Sick I Don't Need Help! - I checked it out of the library, but here is its Amazon listing:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0967718902/

Good luck... we are dealing with a bi-polar relative who has had to be taken to the hospital after a call to 911 , but then released with absolutely no support ... sigh

 

[TeaBag420]

This is not the place to get a solution to your problem. Your local mental health agency would probably be better. Alternatively, have the family petition the court to have him committed. Good luck.

 

[headcoat]

This is not the place to get a solution to your problem. Your local mental health agency would probably be better. Alternatively, have the family petition the court to have him committed. Good luck.

What is the success rate of patients commited against their will?

 

[LostAngeles]

What is the success rate of patients commited against their will?

I think it has to be a family member who does it or the state needs a good reason. I know that in MA if you're involuntarily commited they keep you for at least ten days.

 

[Zep]

Why are you asking on an Internet BB for advice on this? Your local GPs/doctors will be able to assist far more immediately and with knowledge of local laws and requirements.

 

[BPSCG]

What is the success rate of patients commited against their will?

My ex-wife's mother had similar delusions; there were people living in the walls of her house watching her.

We tried having her committed (this was in Pennsylvania, in 1979 or so, so your mileage may vary), and discovered that unless she was a danger to herself or to others, it would be almost impossible to have her involuntarily committed. We finally gave up, and she died a few months later.

I have to agree with the others who've posted here - this isn't the place to get solid advice. You need to contact your local mental health agencies. But don't be surprised if you can't get much accomplished.

It's a sad situation, and I wish you the best.

 

[roger]

Headcoat, your title "how to reason with a schizophrenic", is equivalent to "how do you reason with a cancer patient". You can't reason cancer away, nor schizophrenia. The guy is not being unreasonable, he is sick. See a doctor.

 

[An Infinite Ocean]

Given the reasonably advice received, I think it was perfectly reasonable to post this question here.

 

[Dancing David]

This is not the place to get a solution to your problem. Your local mental health agency would probably be better. Alternatively, have the family petition the court to have him committed. Good luck.

TeaBag ,
In the US, if this person is in the US, commitment is not the option. A person has to present 'a clear and present danger', for a commitment to occur in most states.

And this is a wonderful place to get advise on how to deal with a friend who is living with scizophrenia, I have had two friends decompensate and worked in mental health for twelve years.

 

[Dancing David]

What is the success rate of patients commited against their will?

Very low, but it varies from state to state in the US. If this person is in the uS, then it can almost impossible to hospitalize them against thier will.

In the US we do not have a 'grandmother' state that just strips people of thier civil liberties in the name of benevolence, you have to threaten to harm yourself or threaten to harm others or be a danger to yourself.

Danger to self is generaly a very questionable concept as well. I have known people to play 'dodge'em' in traffic and not be commited (that is one extreme), generaly it means that you are so sick that you wills et fires or walk in front of a car. Of course this is a very difficult issue.

 

[Dancing David]

I have a friend who has been having escalating delusions, and it is pretty apparent he is schizophrenic; he refuses to accept that label or attempt to treat it.

I have been where you are , and it is about as much fun as having a friend with a major substance abuse problem.

1. Don't confront the delusions. How would you feel if people were telling you that the sun rose in the west? Even when I had the thrust of someone that I had worked with for a very long time, I would not confront thier delusions. They really believe these things to be true.

2. Be cautious, as a former worker i hate to stigmatise, but if your friend starts to includee you in thier delusions, sytay away. People who have schizophrenia very rarely hurt other people, but be aware of your incorporation in their delusions.

3. Be a friend, despite all these people telling you to contact mental health. Well your friend is going to be very socialy isolated, spend time with them, get them to agree that you two will not discuss topics that cause conflicts.

4. Take care of yourself, be aware of your own stress level and maintain good boundaries. If your friend freaks out, refer them to mental health. Spend only the time you feel comfortable with them, they will need your friendship as thier life progesses. But do not become thier caretaker.

5. Encourage your friend to avoid the use of alcohol and other leagl intoxicants, encourage them to avoid the use of illegal drugs. Don't fight with them , set a clear boundary that you will not hang out with them if they choose to use.

6. Feel free to ignore my advice.

 

[TeaBag420]

TeaBag ,
In the US, if this person is in the US, commitment is not the option. A person has to present 'a clear and present danger', for a commitment to occur in most states.

So you're asserting that commitment IS an option in some states in the U.S. Very well, then, you contradict yourself.

And this is a wonderful place to get advise on how to deal with a friend who is living with scizophrenia, I have had two friends decompensate and worked in mental health for twelve years.

How many more years until you learn to spell "schizophrenia"? or "advice" for that matter?

" 'S wonderful, 's marvelous...."

 

[headcoat]

Is it safe to assume he will never fully recover? Some reading I've done seems to suggest schizophrenics are almost never "cured"; at best their delusions are battered into submission through tranquilizers. Should I accept that I've lost the friend I've had?

 

[Chris Haynes]

Is it safe to assume he will never fully recover? Some reading I've done seems to suggest schizophrenics are almost never "cured"; at best their delusions are battered into submission through tranquilizers. Should I accept that I've lost the friend I've had?

What exactly have you been reading?

From my reading the medications are not all tranquilizers... plus some do recover. I wish I could grab the references for you, but the book by Xaviar Amador was a library book and I gave my copy of the book with the full list of medications and their effects to the mom of the bi-polar relative. It was When Someone You Love Has a Mental Illness: A Handbook for Family, Friends, and Caregivers ... here is its Amazon description:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0874776953/

 

[Dancing David]

So you're asserting that commitment IS an option in some states in the U.S. Very well, then, you contradict yourself.


Hey Tea Bag, what a large donkey you ride upon, commitment is an option but it is a very difficult preposition, against thier will. Especialy if the person is not standing there holding a knife and threatening to stab soemone.

I was involved in commitments, were you?

And of course US laws is inherently contraidctory, duh? We have fifty states that right different laws.


How many more years until you learn to spell "schizophrenia"? or "advice" for that matter?

" 'S wonderful, 's marvelous...."

Probably about as long as it will take you to get a life. George Washinton wasn't constrained by modern orthography, nor shall I be so limited.

 

[Dancing David]

Is it safe to assume he will never fully recover? Some reading I've done seems to suggest schizophrenics are almost never "cured"; at best their delusions are battered into submission through tranquilizers. Should I accept that I've lost the friend I've had?

They will still be your friend, but hey people change all the time. The delusions may come under control but not totaly.

I have known people to go into total remission while they take there medication, and others who still had major problems.
They will likely be no more cured than a diabetic is cured by insulin.

Some people recover quite rapidly, some don't. Not all have the progressive form of the illness.

The law of thirds applies, one third will get well with the right medication, one third will repond marginaly and onee third will respond poorly.

Street drugs never help.

 

[Eos of the Eons]

Previously, he was a rational, critical thinker so perhaps there is a way to appeal to that side of him to make him see that his delusions arent true.

Getting him to a doctor is an impossibility - he has intense fear and hatred for them (claims they have conducted experiments on him in previous hospitalizations). Any way of alleviating some of his symptoms?

Forget what your friend was like before. He is completely different now, and will never be the same again. I can only speak from experience and see very wise words in Dancing David's post.

The only way to alleviate symptoms in any nth degree is for your friend to avoid added stress anywhere. You have no control over this, and your friend will never understand that the way he is looking for affirmation in the sources you posted.

In my province the person has to be a danger to themselves or others in order to be committed, and that interpretation is left up to a judge a lot of the times.

Your friend is typical in not understanding they have an illness. Trying to convince them they can be helped will only put you on the bad list in their mind.

I have no advice since my experience has been hopeless. Take care, and seek a support group if you can. You can often find them in a phone book, the "schizophrenic society" is one you can look up.

 

[garys_2k]

Having just read a handful of accounts from that mindcontrolforums site, I am really awed. The most troubling common thread of all the accounts is the absolute certainty they express that they are not sick and that the things they experience (mostly hallucinations) are completely real.

Does schizophrenia destroy one's ability to think rationally? Do some people maintain the ability to apply Occam's Razon and conclude that their problem is internal and NOT the result of some massive consipiracy? Believing otherwise is to deny logic.

Perhaps it is the relentless hallucinating that erodes their ability to maintain perspective. I can't imagine many people could hold up against a 24/7 barrage of insults and such.

 

[BPSCG]

Does schizophrenia destroy one's ability to think rationally?

I thought so, until my wife read A Beautiful Mind. Seems the guy involved (forget his name, sorry) was hallucinating a mile a minute for years, fully believing them. Then one day, apparently, he reasoned that the hallucinations couldn't be real, and willed them to go away. Sounds inconceivable to me (and maybe someone who's actually read the book can explain better than I can what happened).

But I worked for the Social Security Administration for a number of years; part of my job was to take applications for disability benefits. I got to talk with a lot of people who had schizophrenia, and what reasoning ability I saw was always at least severely impaired. If what A Beautiful Mind describes is accurate, I imagine it's exceedingly rare.