How To Ensure Chavez Steps down in 2012

daredelvis said:
I was not stating that Chavez is a good or bad president. All I am saying is that people do not tend to come to power in a vacuum. Leaders like Chavez appeal to people because they see them as +an alternative to a system that is not working for them.

Daredelvis
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Understood.

Aristide appealed (the term I jumped on) to a majority in Haiti on a platform of, among other things, class warfare and negritude. He got elected. *toss confetti, don party hat*

Luckily for Chavez, he has far more potential, due to oil revenue and other productivity in his nation, to be able to do some greater food (public works projects, etc) for Venezuela. This situation Aristide didn't have to hand. Haiti was already well on its way to "failed nation state" status. (Boutros era UN)

We'll see what Chavez does with his latest mandate. For the sake of the people in Venezuela, I hope he does a great deal of good for them.

DR
 
Dave1001 said:
It makes sense to me for the individuals of the world to show that we expect Chavez to step down in 2012, as his constitution says he must and as would be good governance.
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He's had no qualms about changing the constitution to suit his needs before, why would he stop now?

My prediction is his term will end via military coup or revolution, probably not for 15 years or so.
 
WildCat said:
He's had no qualms about changing the constitution to suit his needs before, why would he stop now?

My prediction is his term will end via military coup or revolution, probably not for 15 years or so.
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No probs. Call up Pat Robertson in 2012, he'll get it sorted out. :p

DR
 
WildCat said:
He's had no qualms about changing the constitution to suit his needs before, why would he stop now?

My prediction is his term will end via military coup or revolution, probably not for 15 years or so.
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I predict he will feel compelled to step down in 2012 and a fairly elected successor will take his place, because he'll feel the pressure of world opinion and the opinion of his fellow Venezuelans.
 
I heard on National Public Radio that he rigged the election "much like Bush in Florida." The report said he got about 30% of the vote. That was NPR. Does anyone else know how fair and square the election was?
 
Darth Rotor said:
Luckily for Chavez, he has far more potential, due to oil revenue and other productivity in his nation, to be able to do some greater food
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Agreed. It's about time they get some decent chaff that is NOT based on corn flour. Frankly I can't stand that!
 
steverino said:
I heard on National Public Radio that he rigged the election "much like Bush in Florida." The report said he got about 30% of the vote. That was NPR. Does anyone else know how fair and square the election was?
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If they claim he got 30%, I don't trust them very much. There's been some question marks, but there's no way he would only have 30% support.
 
Merko said:
If they claim he got 30%, I don't trust them very much. There's been some question marks, but there's no way he would only have 30% support.
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OK. Again, I heard it on NPR which is, you know, kind of liberal. Maybe it was polling and not the election. But he said the deal was rigged.
 
NPR is pretty much my only choice when listening to the radio, so I listen to it whenever I am driving, which isn't a lot, but enough for me to be very familiar with the network. Never have I heard a report coming from NPR headquarters that was so biased or so off the mark. I hear people saying that NPR is liberal, and I do think that the hosts probably are left of center in their personal views, but they do a very good job of hiding their positions on things.

With that being said, the nature of NPR lends itself to potential misinformation from local affiliates. I wouldn't be surprised if your local affiliate in Seattle was airing their own local programming, or programming that came from a whacky area like San Francisco, when you heard that report. I am lucky that Sacramento is very good about being unbiased, but I've listened to the San Francisco station before(it comes in here), and I wouldn't be surprised to hear rhetoric like what you heard on that affiliate. But NPR as a national radio network doesn't deserve to be painted with such a broad brush, in my opinion.

More to the topic, exit polls or estimating election results are illegal in Venezuela, so that Chavez can shut down the TV networks if they use them. He already did shut down Telemundo, owned by General Electric, during elections coverage. I read that a government minister was ready to use the army to take over TV stations that announced the opposition candidate as the winner of the election. Now Chavez is supporting the idea of holding a referendum on whether to shut down privately held TV stations. As if that makes it any more legitimate.

I have an online friend from Venezuela and he is freaking right now. I can't say that I blame him.
 
Changing the constitution to remove term limits may be a symptom of Chavez's anti-democratic tendencies, but I can't see it becoming much of an international issue. Afterall, I don't think Australia, Canada, NZ, UK or Ireland have term limits (correct me if I am wrong).
 
Pescado said:
NPR is pretty much my only choice when listening to the radio, so I listen to it whenever I am driving, which isn't a lot, but enough for me to be very familiar with the network. Never have I heard a report coming from NPR headquarters that was so biased or so off the mark. I hear people saying that NPR is liberal, and I do think that the hosts probably are left of center in their personal views, but they do a very good job of hiding their positions on things.

With that being said, the nature of NPR lends itself to potential misinformation from local affiliates. I wouldn't be surprised if your local affiliate in Seattle was airing their own local programming, or programming that came from a whacky area like San Francisco, when you heard that report. I am lucky that Sacramento is very good about being unbiased, but I've listened to the San Francisco station before(it comes in here), and I wouldn't be surprised to hear rhetoric like what you heard on that affiliate. But NPR as a national radio network doesn't deserve to be painted with such a broad brush, in my opinion.

More to the topic, exit polls or estimating election results are illegal in Venezuela, so that Chavez can shut down the TV networks if they use them. He already did shut down Telemundo, owned by General Electric, during elections coverage. I read that a government minister was ready to use the army to take over TV stations that announced the opposition candidate as the winner of the election. Now Chavez is supporting the idea of holding a referendum on whether to shut down privately held TV stations. As if that makes it any more legitimate.

I have an online friend from Venezuela and he is freaking right now. I can't say that I blame him.
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Well sounds to me like your online friend's info is consistant with the NPR report. Most posting on this thread seem to think he is legit. I would guess some here who are glad he "won" are not glad Bush "won" twice.;)
 
For the record, I do think that Chavez won fair in square in that I don't think he directly rigged the elections, but I do think that indirectly his non-democratic policies did help him. Not that he really needed it any more. Oh yeah, and for what it's worth, my Venezuelan friend does think that Chavez directly rigged the elections, for whatever that is worth.

However, I read in the Wall Street Journal in the past few days that the Venezuelan company that bought out a US voting machine company (forget the names) is under investigation for giving bribes to Venezuela to get a contract, and that the sale is under review to be reversed based on national security concerns. In light of that information, it does seem to become more plausible that maybe he did directly rig the elections.
 
Pescado said:
For the record, I do think that Chavez won fair in square in that I don't think he directly rigged the elections, but I do think that indirectly his non-democratic policies did help him. Not that he really needed it any more. Oh yeah, and for what it's worth, my Venezuelan friend does think that Chavez directly rigged the elections, for whatever that is worth.

However, I read in the Wall Street Journal in the past few days that the Venezuelan company that bought out a US voting machine company (forget the names) is under investigation for giving bribes to Venezuela to get a contract, and that the sale is under review to be reversed based on national security concerns. In light of that information, it does seem to become more plausible that maybe he did directly rig the elections.
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Does your friend read and write English? He/she could post here. It would be interesting.
 
gtc said:
Changing the constitution to remove term limits may be a symptom of Chavez's anti-democratic tendencies, but I can't see it becoming much of an international issue. Afterall, I don't think Australia, Canada, NZ, UK or Ireland have term limits (correct me if I am wrong).
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Australia, Canada, New Zealand, and the UK certainly do have term limits for their head of state. It's called "life".

However we don't get to elect them. :p

Frankly, who cares... what harm can he do to the global community? He's a silly crazy man.

-Gumboot
 
Pescado said:
NPR is pretty much my only choice when listening to the radio, so I listen to it whenever I am driving, which isn't a lot, but enough for me to be very familiar with the network. Never have I heard a report coming from NPR headquarters that was so biased or so off the mark. I hear people saying that NPR is liberal, and I do think that the hosts probably are left of center in their personal views, but they do a very good job of hiding their positions on things.

With that being said, the nature of NPR lends itself to potential misinformation from local affiliates. I wouldn't be surprised if your local affiliate in Seattle was airing their own local programming, or programming that came from a whacky area like San Francisco, when you heard that report. I am lucky that Sacramento is very good about being unbiased, but I've listened to the San Francisco station before(it comes in here), and I wouldn't be surprised to hear rhetoric like what you heard on that affiliate. But NPR as a national radio network doesn't deserve to be painted with such a broad brush, in my opinion.

More to the topic, exit polls or estimating election results are illegal in Venezuela, so that Chavez can shut down the TV networks if they use them. He already did shut down Telemundo, owned by General Electric, during elections coverage. I read that a government minister was ready to use the army to take over TV stations that announced the opposition candidate as the winner of the election. Now Chavez is supporting the idea of holding a referendum on whether to shut down privately held TV stations. As if that makes it any more legitimate.

I have an online friend from Venezuela and he is freaking right now. I can't say that I blame him.
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I think that nationalizing private TV stations and costitutionally repealing presidential term limits are both bad ideas for Venezuela. Even referendums on those topics are wrong-headed, in my opinion, because they're examples of democracy getting in the way of liberal governance. With a 60/40 electoral split, Venezuela deserves a robust opposition over the next 6 years, and nationalizing the TV stations would serve to reduce the diversity of viewpoints and information sources available to Venezuelans, in my opinion.
 
Dave1001 said:
I think that nationalizing private TV stations and costitutionally repealing presidential term limits are both bad ideas for Venezuela. Even referendums on those topics are wrong-headed, in my opinion, because they're examples of democracy getting in the way of liberal governance. With a 60/40 electoral split, Venezuela deserves a robust opposition over the next 6 years, and nationalizing the TV stations would serve to reduce the diversity of viewpoints and information sources available to Venezuelans, in my opinion.
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Completely agree, especially since those TV stations that are under scrutiny are largely in favor of the opposition. Chavez is pretending that holding a referendum to stifle freedom of speech is somehow more democratic than a head of state stifling freedom of speech. I really hope that it doesn't go forward. Venezuela is on the path to becoming an okay place to live by South American standards, despite Chavez. I'd hate for him to turn it into a cesspool where a revolution is required to get the ruling government out of power. I'm sure that the U.S. government wouldn't appreciate it, either. Venezuela's oil is important to the U.S.

Frankly, who cares... what harm can he do to the global community? He's a silly crazy man.
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Venezuela has lots of oil and has begun spending that oil income on a massive military expansion. Crazy men and powerful militaries don't generally mix well (and Americans should know that better than anyone...haha). I don't know exactly how it could/will be used, but I know that it could be destabilizing to South America. That would suck, because South/Central American countries are finally starting to not kill each other and get on with governing. I'd really like to see a somewhat developed South America in my lifetime, and I'm not sure if Chavez is part of the equation that will lead to that.

Does your friend read and write English? He/she could post here. It would be interesting.
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Yeah, he does. You wouldn't mistake his English for that of a native speaker's, like some of the posters on this forum, but it is good enough to get his points across. Certainly a far cry better than my mangled Spanish. I'll give him a link to this thread, and see if he wants to participate. I only know him through an online game and the forum for that game, so I am not positive about how enthused he'll be about this particular discussion, but on election night he certainly had a strong opinion.
 
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