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How to be a non-believer in a believing world

acbytesla

Penultimate Amazing
acbytesla
Joined
Dec 14, 2012
Messages
39,394
I use to be a Christian.

But I don't think I was ever a believer. Even as a 6 year old I just couldn't believe a woman was made out of Adam's rib. Or that a snake spoke to Eve. Or a donkey spoke to Absalom. Or that a 500 year old drunkard built a huge boat and gathered two of every animal. These are just the tip of the iceberg of the unbelievable events in the Bible.

Still, I believed in the teachings of Jesus. Love your neighbor. Be charitable and compassionate. Don't lie, don't steal, don't judge, and be quick to forgive.

That use to be enough at the church I attended. But then it wasn't. My beliefs became unacceptable and my views became blasphemous. It is so weird when you become persona non grata where you once were welcome. I never changed. The church did.

My question is how do you get along with Christians without being a phony? I've resorted to saying to Christians that I believe in Christ's teachings but not in anything else.

How do you handle it?
 
Perspective.

Religion in the US is a poor simulacrum, a copy of a copy of European Christianity, and as such deeply insecure, deeply immature, unsure of what it is and what it is supposed to be; in Europe, religion has found a place (though shrinking) by actually trying to be part of the Culture rather than trying to control it through politics. It has found a niche it can survive in.

US Religion wants the entire pie, and so will end up with nothing.
 
I pretty much act as if religion deserves zero credibility. The sacred documents the most of them rely on have no credibility.
But the key is to avoid talking about religion without making it obvious.
 
You can tell that US religion lacks any core, as it is so easily influenced by every trend there is.

Currently, we see a Gamification in that some think that they are in a Trading Game with God:
- getting x number of books banned from a School Library: 1 Faith Points each
- getting the 10 commandments into Schools: 10 Faith Points
- stopping your local Pride Parade or Drag Queen Story Hour: 8 Faith Points
- listening to Christian Rock: varies depending on the JPM (jesus per minute)
- electing Trump or anyone else pretending to want a US Theocracy: 9999 Fatih Points

when they have accumulated enough Faith Points, they can trade them in to God, who in return will wave his magic wand and turn America into the Most Christian Nation on earth, a title currently held by Russia.

These are such childish notions of Religion that it is hard to take them seriously; doubly so when you see how serious "believers" take them.
 
In Australia, it's easy, because nobody really talks about religion. If you do, you're the crazy one.

90% of the people I encounter day to day could be balls-to-the-wall evangelical Christians and I wouldn't even know.
 
8enotto said:
I pretty much act as if religion deserves zero credibility. The sacred documents the most of them rely on have no credibility.
But the key is to avoid talking about religion without making it obvious.
Click to expand...

I agree and I disagree. None of the stories I've read have merit. But some of the philosophy can. Community, kindness, grace and charity have value.
 
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acbytesla said:
I agree and I disagree. None of the stories I've read have merit. But some of the philosophy can. Community, kindness, grace and charity have value.
Click to expand...
Sure, they have value, but we have these altruistic traits because we're social animals and they help us thrive, not because <insert name of deity> told us to behave like that.
 
It is hard to find moral or philosophical value in the stories of the Old Testament.

And the teachings of the New Testament have the problem that they are based on Christianity being a Death Cult: boundless compassion, poverty to pay for charity, no offspring and no resistance only work if Jesus had come back within the Disciples' lifetime.

As the Church figured out, it all needs to be more or less ignored if you want to run a society on these teachings.
 
I have never needed to handle it. The UK has very few regular church attending citizens. Religion is seen as a personal thing. If people ask other's religion then it won't be unusual for the reply to be that they don't believe. Normally the conversation would stop there.

I get on fine with some Christians, not with others but the same is true for people of other faiths or none. I am not going to raise the issue of belief in any conversation.
I am beyond the stage of thinking I can change others beliefs and feel no need to do so, however I will be vocal about religious belief being forced on people and opposed it on the rational that it should be a personal choice. For me that is things like Bishops in the house of Lords and religion being incorporated in state events. In America I suspect I would find more to object to.
 
Never mind talking religion at work - a small bumper sticker on your car is likely to be looked on as being rather gauche! :) Even someone observing a religious fasting festival is only going to illicit a "no thanks, it's Ramadan" when asked if they want a cuppa and that will be it.
 
Lothian said:
I have never needed to handle it. The UK has very few regular church attending citizens. Religion is seen as a personal thing. If people ask other's religion then it won't be unusual for the reply to be that they don't believe. Normally the conversation would stop there.

I get on fine with some Christians, not with others but the same is true for people of other faiths or none. I am not going to raise the issue of belief in any conversation.
I am beyond the stage of thinking I can change others beliefs and feel no need to do so, however I will be vocal about religious belief being forced on people and opposed it on the rational that it should be a personal choice. For me that is things like Bishops in the house of Lords and religion being incorporated in state events. In America I suspect I would find more to object to.
Click to expand...

Wot Lothian said.

If religionistas don't talk religion at me I have no need to talk about religion. And, contrary to what Part Skeptic insists us non-believers do, I don't talk about not believing in religion, same as I tend not to talk about not believing in any number of other things I don't believe in.
 
Same here. I just don't bring it up, and most others don't either, because most polite people don't start a conversation on religion without context, and there are polite ways of dismissing a subject without discussing it. And despite what some of our resident theists seem unable to process, I do not have an undoctrine, nor the need to proselytize my unmessage to passers-by. I suppose with the right spin one could make the claim that we atheists are a sneaky and subversive uncult, because we leave the ornaments, uniforms and funny hats to the goths, evangelists and Trumpies, but there it is.
 
acbytesla said:
I use to be a Christian.

But I don't think I was ever a believer. Even as a 6 year old I just couldn't believe a woman was made out of Adam's rib. Or that a snake spoke to Eve. Or a donkey spoke to Absalom. Or that a 500 year old drunkard built a huge boat and gathered two of every animal. These are just the tip of the iceberg of the unbelievable events in the Bible.

Still, I believed in the teachings of Jesus. Love your neighbor. Be charitable and compassionate. Don't lie, don't steal, don't judge, and be quick to forgive.

That use to be enough at the church I attended. But then it wasn't. My beliefs became unacceptable and my views became blasphemous. It is so weird when you become persona non grata where you once were welcome. I never changed. The church did.

My question is how do you get along with Christians without being a phony? I've resorted to saying to Christians that I believe in Christ's teachings but not in anything else.

How do you handle it?
Click to expand...

Not sure I understand the dilemma. If a Christian can't abide being in the same room as an atheist, that's the Christian's problem, not the atheist's.

I'm all about getting along with others and seeking common ground, but the Christian has to want the same or the relationship will never find an equilibrium.
 
arthwollipot said:
In Australia, it's easy, because nobody really talks about religion. If you do, you're the crazy one.

90% of the people I encounter day to day could be balls-to-the-wall evangelical Christians and I wouldn't even know.
Click to expand...
In my experience, its true of most of the US, there are some places where the second questions anyone asks you is, "what church do you go to?"

That being said, I've never had a problem being an atheists. Most folks don't really care and those that do tend to shut up and move on when you say you are an atheist.

I've found that not being and ******* helps get along with all sorts of folks.
 
I think many of you misunderstand my question and the problem. I can see how it may not be a problem in Europe, or Australia or even much of a problem in the big cities here in the US.
But this is not a unique problem. Especially in rural US and the Bible belt.

I basically don't believe a word of the Bible. And I get that loving your neighbor is not necessarily unique to JC.

But we live in a social world. And trust me, Christians think they can convert me until they walk away feeling dumbfounded. I want to get along with them. I want them as friends and allies. But that can be challenge. How do you destroy the religion without destroying relationships?
 
acbytesla said:
I think many of you misunderstand my question and the problem. I can see how it may not be a problem in Europe, or Australia or even much of a problem in the big cities here in the US.
But this is not a unique problem. Especially in rural US and the Bible belt.

I basically don't believe a word of the Bible. And I get that loving your neighbor is not necessarily unique to JC.

But we live in a social world. And trust me, Christians think they can convert me until they walk away feeling dumbfounded. I want to get along with them. I want them as friends and allies. But that can be challenge. How do you destroy the religion without destroying relationships?
Click to expand...

I am quite sure that many of us here actually do understand your problem. It's just that many of us here have no experience dealing with a problem that is, in fact, unique to a rather select segment of the USA population. If you only want responses from that select population you could have specified that.

For myself I have no interest in relationships with any person who proselytizes at me, and I would quickly terminate such a relationship. Socializing, to me, is an inconvenience I am happy to avoid.

And I doubt that you will have any success "destroying" a religion.
 
I'll pick a nit, its not all of rural America, its the bible belt only. I grew up in a small farm town, it wasn't an issue there, isn't now.

Start by not destroying the religion. If that's your goal good luck and prepare to not have friends. As a USian, with lots of religious friends and associates, I find your problem baffling, I've been friends and even gone to church with folks that tried to convert me. It didn't take long to convince them it wasn't happening and somehow, I stayed friends.
 
Fake it.
It's not worth your time or theirs.

They will be happy to pretend they don't live next to a demon spawn, and you will be happy not being doused in holy water when you are not looking.

US Christians are almost all illiterate when it comes to the Bible, so if they just pretend, so can you.
 
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