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How to Analyze Cryptid Assertions

Here's a classic Bigfoot blocking trails from The Smokies

That looks likes it's about 8 feet off the ground. How high up was that limb?

Here is what I would consider a blocking tree break. This trail was clear the weekend before we found this. No bad weather during the week either.

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What counts as that evidence, jerrywayne? Do you need to see live video feeds of every so-called stick structure falling into place in a windstorm or set up as a lean-to from a hiker?

The 'footers have it backwards: It's not incumbent on skeptics to demonstrate that every weird-looking pile of sticks in the woods was left by something that wasn't bigfoot, it's up to 'footers to demonstrate that just one was.

Of coarse not. The skeptic need not. indeed cannot, explain each and every piece of evidence put forward by enthusiasts. That would be impossible.

What is required, I think, is a general scenario, with evidence, that theoretically could explain a host of similar claims. For instance, if we can show or deduce that bears, misidentified humans, expectant anticipation, hoaxes, etc., can cause sighting reports, this body of examples can be used to explain various sighting reports reasonably, with probability, if not with certainty.

Your point is well taken. But as long as skeptics think Bigfooters need to come to them with definitive evidence and the skeptic need do nothing more, then Bigfootery will continue to gain adherents.

The "stick structure" thing is a good example. I think such structures are probably natural caprice or human artifact. In your book, my armchair explanations are perfectly fine and dispense with the issue (because, of coarse, there is no Bigfoot). Yet, I've done nothing to verify my explanations, and have nothing to show as a counter-argument to the Bigfooter's claim.

I think Bigfooters are right about one aspect of skepticism. If Patterson's film was just a mockup taken from an ape suit and filmed fortuitously by a talented Patterson, then skeptics ought to produce the approximate results. If trackways are created by stompers and other fakery, then we should be able to produce the approximate results. If stick structures are just man made artifacts, made by hunters and scouts, we should produce hunters and scouts who put together such things. Etc., etc.

And before skeptics here get all bent out of shape, huffy, and tell me all about where the burden of proof lies, let me remind one and all of the past nonsense of spiritualism. Spiritualism once was all the rage. It even had its own scientists and intellectuals who supported it. It largely died out because it was exposed as a fraud. It was exposed by magicians like Houdini who got down and dirty and explained by weight of replication what was happening in the séance darkness. They didn't just set back and say "prove it" or "the burden of proof rests with the practitioners of spiritualism." They showed how it was done.

I think this is what is required, in some form, of Bigfoot skeptics. That is, if the goal is to influence non-skeptics concerning the issue of Bigfoot.
 
NL,
There were three small trees in about 20yrds snapped off between 10-15'.
I took the pics with my buds at Project Grendal in mind, Norse and I go back and forth on this issue all the time.
Your tree could have fallen 10 min before you got there not really sure why that matters.
Trees don't need bad weather to fail, looks to me like the tree was dying and a little breeze will create quite a load on the tree and it fails.
Again like said if this is proof that Bigfoots real...then Va is bigfoot central.
It would indicate bigfoot is present state wide and spends alot of time knocking over trees on every trail I've been on.
Like I said in my vid.... Trees fall and sooner or later they going to fall on a trail that you use.
I would like to know if your outdoor experience is limited to Bigfoot research and if not what other outdoor activities have you participated in.
I hate to pull the "woodsman resume" card but clearly I find it astounding that anyone who's familar with the outdoors in a forested environment could see trees on the ground for anything other than....well trees on the ground :confused:
 
I have gone to the woods on many occasions. I've looked around, if I remembered to, to see if I could find dead or detached tree limbs in odd, apparently placed positions. And old deer blinds. No luck. I've looked up Scouting sites on the web and have found photos of makeshift shelters, but nothing like the things Bigfooters claim are Bigfoot related. We are assuming the answers are there. I just haven't seen anything definitive.

This strikes me as incredibly naive or just straight up silliness. It also strikes me as a desire to believe in the unbelievable, bigfoot. I can walk out my back door right now, and within 150 yards find numerous "stick structures". Branches break and fall all the time, all on their own accord. And the wind helps with that process, as does temperature and humidity. Limbs break, fall and pile up. It's a completely natural process, and for all the decades that I have been seeing this stuff, never have I attributed it to some higher mentality causing it to happen. I have never thought that bigfoot or anything else had done the arranging. More than that, it cracks me up that anyone even has labeled the random, natural piling of branches as "stick structures". What an absolutely stupid term. What an absolutely stupid straw to grasp at to try to make bigfoots real. Having gone into the woods on occasion and never having seen branches piled up, well, too bad for you, dod didn't see a bigfoot nest, or road marker, or baby cage, or whatever else you might want to consider them as. But I have them on my own property, I have seen with my own eyes as the branches fall and pile up. You could say that I have seen "stick structures" as they were actually being "made". I didn't see any bigfoots making them, so maybe they were cloaked while doing their handiwork, eh? :-)
 
Find a specific wooded place where Bigfooters and Skeptics can agree there is no Bigfoot.

You will never find a place that Bigfooters agree there is no bigfoot! Because if you did get some sort of concession that they likely don't exist in some specific place, the moment you did find a broken branch, that in itself would change to evidence that they actually DO exist there!
 
That looks likes it's about 8 feet off the ground. How high up was that limb?

Here is what I would consider a blocking tree break. This trail was clear the weekend before we found this. No bad weather during the week either.

[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=1149&pictureid=8892[/qimg]

[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=1149&pictureid=8891[/qimg]

If a tree falls in a forest and there's no one there to see it, did bigfoot do it?

Again, that's what happens in the forest. Every. Single. Day.

BTW: your second photo of the popple across the two-track looks like something you see in the woods all the time. There's a reason someone want's to prevent vehicular access.
 
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The skeptic need not. indeed cannot, explain each and every piece of evidence put forward by enthusiasts. That would be impossible.
Right . . .

What is required, I think, is a general scenario, with evidence, that theoretically could explain a host of similar claims. . . .

The "stick structure" thing is a good example. I think such structures are probably natural caprice or human artifact. In your book, my armchair explanations are perfectly fine and dispense with the issue (because, of coarse, there is no Bigfoot).
No, not because there is no bigfoot, but because we know there are other things that result in such structures that are not bigfoot. These must be ruled out before something unknown like "bigfoot" can be ruled in.

Yet, I've done nothing to verify my explanations, and have nothing to show as a counter-argument to the Bigfooter's claim.

If stick structures are just man made artifacts, made by hunters and scouts, we should produce hunters and scouts who put together such things. Etc., etc.
Do you mean like these?

shelter 1

shelter 2

shelter 3

Actual Boy Scouts sheltering.

tree bend (scroll to bottom) from mountain pine beetle, not bigfoot

overstocked stand with bent trees


wind damage - looks like it's broken off about 12' from the ground!


I'm confused - were you unaware that we have evidence that "stick structures" are known to arise from human endeavor and natural disturbances?

If Patterson's film was just a mockup taken from an ape suit and filmed fortuitously by a talented Patterson, then skeptics ought to produce the approximate results.
Depending on what you mean by "approximate" this has been done many times over. Folks here have demonstrated that better looking ape suits than Patterson's were appearing on film by at least the 1930s.

If trackways are created by stompers and other fakery, then we should be able to produce the approximate results.
What approximate results are you talking about? Tube and others have demonstrated that a rigid form can create the impression of a mid-tarsal break and that "dermal ridges" form as a result of idiosyncrasies in the material used to make casts. Ray Wallace, Roger Patterson, Paul Freeman - all are known bigfoot footprint forgers.
 
Right . . .


No, not because there is no bigfoot, but because we know there are other things that result in such structures that are not bigfoot. These must be ruled out before something unknown like "bigfoot" can be ruled in.


Do you mean like these?

shelter 1

shelter 2

shelter 3

Actual Boy Scouts sheltering.

tree bend (scroll to bottom) from mountain pine beetle, not bigfoot

overstocked stand with bent trees


wind damage - looks like it's broken off about 12' from the ground!


I'm confused - were you unaware that we have evidence that "stick structures" are known to arise from human endeavor and natural disturbances?


Depending on what you mean by "approximate" this has been done many times over. Folks here have demonstrated that better looking ape suits than Patterson's were appearing on film by at least the 1930s.


What approximate results are you talking about? Tube and others have demonstrated that a rigid form can create the impression of a mid-tarsal break and that "dermal ridges" form as a result of idiosyncrasies in the material used to make casts. Ray Wallace, Roger Patterson, Paul Freeman - all are known bigfoot footprint forgers.

Thanks Shrike. Most of the photos are right on. I did a google search previously but I must have not known where to look. I assumed that such "structures" were human artifacts or natural, but couldn't quite find the convincing evidence/info. Thanks.

As to the other issues, I'm not convinced. Pointing out ape suits in early cinema is not the same as producing a Patterson sasquatch. We assume it was easily done (and it probably was), so why haven't skeptics with appropriate talent produced virtually the same thing. I'm not saying it couldn't be done, I'm saying that no one has bothered to put this thing to an end by producing virtually the same thing on film. The closest I've seen is Blevins' attempt, but he blew it by not recreating the setting.

I add that there is an amount of subjectivity in this specific topic. I grew up watching horror movies in the 50s. That was my thing. I've never seen an ape costume on film that looked real. The reason the Patterson film is still The Thing with Bigfooters is that it does achieve a certain naked realism. If it didn't, it would be in the bin with Ivan Marx's Bigfoot and a host of wannabe Bigfoot films.

As to the tracks, notice I wrote "trackways," not an individual track. Again, we are assuming it is easy to do, and we are probably right. So why haven't we produced hundreds of tracks in line virtually duplicating what is claimed to be Bigfoot trackways? Are we assuming that there is a special, clever trick that can't be duplicated?
 
I know. I remember you posting an interesting video at BFF to that affect. However, if I remember correctly, you could not definitive explain what caused the pseudo-"bigfoot tree stuff."

While I doubt Bigfoot exist, I do not think it is thoroughly impossible. I guess that is difference between my position and the position of other skeptics here and the cause of disagreement.

If you think Bigfoot is absolutely impossible, then all "stick structures" are non-Bigfoot related by definition. Hence, no need to really get out in the field to document the origin of such structures.

I understand that position. But to Bigfoot enthusiasts and others who are interested in the Bigfoot saga, that point of view is just cheap skepticism. We require of the enthusiast good evidence and often just stop at that request. I think if we are interested in refuting Bigfootery, then we need to counter their claims with sound, and if verifiable, counter-evidence.

I have a green goblin in my garage, please counter my claim with sound, and verifiable, counter-evidence
 
As to the tracks, notice I wrote "trackways," not an individual track. Again, we are assuming it is easy to do, and we are probably right. So why haven't we produced hundreds of tracks in line virtually duplicating what is claimed to be Bigfoot trackways? Are we assuming that there is a special, clever trick that can't be duplicated?

You need to ask the folks that are hoaxing the trackways how they do it. Few are forthcoming.
 
. . . Patterson sasquatch. . . . so why haven't skeptics with appropriate talent produced virtually the same thing. . . . The closest I've seen is Blevins' attempt, but he blew it by not recreating the setting.
(emphasis mine)
What do you mean by "virtually the same"? That's the crux of the matter. There are better-looking apemen in dozens of B-movies, but there's no standard for how close an approximation is close enough. The 'footers simply cry foul that Hollywood has better materials now than Roger had in 1967; when you show them an ape suit from decades earlier they just stonewall that something isn't right about it.
1945 - better than Patty
1925 - ape suit showing muscle definition
1930s ape suit with friggin' 6-pack

As for Blevins, he filmed his "Patty" walking outside and it looks pretty good to me. The 'footers cried foul 'cause it wasn't the same color as Roger's Patty. The BBC put a guy in an off-the-shelf ape suit and the 'footers cried that it was nothing like Patty even though the intent was not to recreate the suit. What about DFoot? His Patty was way better than Roger's.

There is no point to investing the effort in recreating Patty as the impossibility of doing so has long been debunked and there is no amount of similarity to Roger's creation that would ever smooth the froth from the 'footers' mouths.

As to the tracks, notice I wrote "trackways," not an individual track. Again, we are assuming it is easy to do, and we are probably right. So why haven't we produced hundreds of tracks in line virtually duplicating what is claimed to be Bigfoot trackways? Are we assuming that there is a special, clever trick that can't be duplicated?
No, you're assuming that it hasn't been done. Your point is inexplicable to me, however, because those hundreds of prints that make up the alleged bigfoot tracks were themselves faked. Wallace left tracks - not just prints. Patterson did too. It's tautological. Heck, Sanderson fell for this in 1948 with a 2-mile track!
 
As to the tracks, notice I wrote "trackways," not an individual track. Again, we are assuming it is easy to do, and we are probably right. So why haven't we produced hundreds of tracks in line virtually duplicating what is claimed to be Bigfoot trackways? Are we assuming that there is a special, clever trick that can't be duplicated?

How many faked trackways would it take to convince you that it can be done?

Why even footer 'experts' like Derek Randles and Rick Noll were fooled by the Elbe trackway. :rolleyes:

RayG
 
Dinwar should come defend his posts/theories. He's had some pretty fair and decent replies on this thread.
 
Northern Lights
I made a red circle on your photo
qTZ3xz.jpg


You see that damage on the tree?
In 3 or 4 years that will be 8-10 foot off the ground, and beetles or ants will get in there and weaken the tree. It will break at that location, with the right wind.

That is how you get breaks at 8-10' off the ground, not a giant hairy apeman deciding to block a trail.

Alaska Bush Pilot had some epic examples of moose rubbed trees breaking off 15' high or more from the damage their antlers do to trees when the tree is small.

Tree breaks are an EPIC fail for bigfootry. It is a classic example of Bigfootry trying to manufacture evidence to support their beliefs.

Heck, we were knocking over huge trees in Boy Scouts at the age of 12 or 13 and making giant structures in the woods, just for the hell of it. We didn't need a reason. So you can't say "Why would anyone break a tree and stack it like that? it must be Bigfoot". We didn't need a reason. We just did it. Humans terraform the area around them. And this doesn't even mention the fact that trees break, and percentages tell us that some of those trees are going to fall over a trail, or break 10' off the ground. You don't need a Bigfoot to explain things that you don't understand.
 
Would you say it is possible woods monkeys exist in south central KY along the Green River?

Or do woods monkeys only exist in the PNW?

Absolutely they exist in KY.

How many faked trackways would it take to convince you that it can be done?

Why even footer 'experts' like Derek Randles and Rick Noll were fooled by the Elbe trackway. :rolleyes:

RayG

One.

I didn't know there were any 'experts' in Bigfoot Research? I was of the opinion that most times evidence is evaluated by those who aren't even qualified to do so. Chris B.
 

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