How Stupid/Crazy is Michael Badnarik?

CFLarsen said:
Sushi,

What will it take to make you admit that Badnarik is a nut?

He is a nut. So what? Not even remotely relevant to the discussion of the libertarian principles which you find so deeply offensive. I suspect the reason so many are unwillingly to actually discuss the principles themselves is because they would have to recognize their own irrationality when opposing such notions as self ownership and initiation of force. It is so much easier to go after people.
 
Re: First

billydkid,

Badnarik was not going for a figurehead position when he ran for President.
 
Re: First

billydkid said:
First of all, no, he is not the leader of the either the Libertarians or the libertarians. Secondly, why is it of any particular concern to you what Michael Badnarik says? You are trying to discredit libertarians (and their whacky notions that liberty is good and that entrusting large amounts of power to some people over the lives of others is bad) because Michael Badnarik says some nutty things. Mind you, I think I have mentioned this 70 or 80 times - Badnarik is not in a position of any kind of authority. He is not President or Secretary of Defense of Attorney General. He can not send people to die in Iraq (nor would he ever believe he the legitimate authority to do so in such a war even if he were President), so it doesn't matter what he says.

I am curious why anyone would feel inclined to feel all hot and sweaty over what Badnarik says when they actually have and have had people in these positions of power who hold truly scarey views and say equally nutty things. You've got a President who believes that he is doing God's will and helping to expedite the fulfilment of bible prophecy. You've got John Ashcroft who thinks he is the right hand of God. You've got leaders who believe we're engaged in a holy war where our god is better than your god because our god is real and your's is an idol. You've got a President who thinks ID should be taught as an alternative theory in science class and you're worried about what Badnarik thinks?

Badarik is nobody. He carried the banner for the Libertarians party last go round. This a purely figurehead position and I have to hand it to anyone willing to sacrifice so much while gaining nothing just to promote the parties principles. When we are in danger of actually electing a libertarian then it might make sense to fret about every little thing he says. I just don't get this tilting at windmills thing and this desperate vendetta to find any angle to try to discredit libertarians. You don't like libertarian principles, fine. Discuss the ways in which you find liberty offensive and authoritarianism comforting. Debate the principles. Show where they break down. Tell me why you think the founders of the nation were wrongheaded. But it is not relevant to anything whether Badnarik is the biggest dickhead in the world. Fine, I agree, he is a total whack. I don't even. But it is simply a way to avoid actually considering or discussing the ideas.

this is why I still visit the politics forum from time to time. Amidst all the rants, insults and partisan non-sense you sometimes get to read a gem like this.

excellent post.
 
So Badnarik's a nut. Big, fat, hairy deal.

The guy currently occupying the Oval Office thinks that there's an invisible man living in the sky who's giving him personal instructions on how to run the country.

The last prez got himself impeached because he couldn't keep the cigar in the cigar box. (This was after he admitted smoking pot, but tried to cop out by saying he "didn't inhale.")

The one before first got into politics by calling his opponent an "extermist" and "left wing demagogue" because he (the opponent, Yarborough) supported the Civil Rights Act.

And the one before that regularly consulted an astrologer, and he is still regarded by Republicans as something of a diety.

Badnarik might be a fruit loop, but he's no worse than people who have actually managed to get themselves elected into office.
 
Cleon said:
Badnarik might be a fruit loop, but he's no worse than people who have actually managed to get themselves elected into office.
Yeah, but did any of the other nuts think that Hawaii had seceeded from the union, and broadcast it as fact? :)
 
Badnarik might be a fruit loop, but he's no worse than people who have actually managed to get themselves elected into office.

Surely, Cleon, you can tell the difference between "has religious beliefs" or "his wife dabbled in astrology" to "a loony conspiracy nut".
 
Skeptic said:

Surely, Cleon, you can tell the difference between "has religious beliefs" or "his wife dabbled in astrology" to "a loony conspiracy nut".

Ah! It appears that way when you emphasize conspiracy beliefs and de-emphasize religious beliefs and astrology, doesn't it?

Of course, Nancy did way more than just "dabble." They both actively used astrology to help "guide" their decisions.

And as for "having religious beliefs." Y'know, most people have them. But most people don't think God is personally instructing them on how to do their job, and tell everybody given the opportunity. Surely, Skeptic, you can tell the difference.

It's all in how you emphasize it.
 
Ah! It appears that way when you emphasize conspiracy beliefs and de-emphasize religious beliefs and astrology, doesn't it?

That hardly needs to be done in Badnarik's case, does it? We're not talking about someone who thinks the Da Vinci Code is pretty accurate; we're talking about someone who thinks the Pentagon can control the weather and is preparing for the end of the world in 2012 due to the Mayan calendar.
 
Re: First

billydkid said:
Badarik is nobody. He carried the banner for the Libertarians party last go round.

It's a sad comment on the LP that they used this fig newton for their election figurehead. I'm a fairly hardcore libertarian (minarchist gradualist), and even I can see that this guy is a nutbar. The problem is that most of the higher-ups in the LP are nutbars themselves; and are incapable of fielding anyone with any sort of political savvy or clout. The only place that the LP is even remotely effective is on the grass-roots local level, and that is where they need to concentrate for now; instead of wasting resources on high-profile whackjobs.
 
Skeptic said:

That hardly needs to be done in Badnarik's case, does it? We're not talking about someone who thinks the Da Vinci Code is pretty accurate; we're talking about someone who thinks the Pentagon can control the weather and is preparing for the end of the world in 2012 due to the Mayan calendar.

And exactly why is that crazier than someone who conducts policy based on the advice of an astrologer?
 
Re: Apologia for a nut

billydkid said:
You don't like libertarian principles, fine. Discuss the ways in which you find liberty offensive and authoritarianism comforting. Debate the principles. Show where they break down. Tell me why you think the founders of the nation were wrongheaded.
Shall I also discuss when I stopped beating my wife? :rolleyes:

This kind of attitude is one of the things I find most loathesome about politics. "If you're not a libertarian, then you HATE FREEDOM<sup>TM</sup> and think the founding fathers were 'wrongheaded.'" or "If you're not a Democrat then you're a fascist corporate flack." or "If you're not a Republican, then you're a bed-wetting socialist." Farking Demopublitarians can all go to hell, for all I care. :mad:
 
Re: Re: Apologia for a nut

Mahatma Kane Jeeves said:
Shall I also discuss when I stopped beating my wife? :rolleyes:

This kind of attitude is one of the things I find most loathesome about politics. "If you're not a libertarian, then you HATE FREEDOM<sup>TM</sup> and think the founding fathers were 'wrongheaded.'" or "If you're not a Democrat then you're a fascist corporate flack." or "If you're not a Republican, then you're a bed-wetting socialist." Farking Demopublitarians can all go to hell, for all I care. :mad:

I believe the official term in ShanekWorld<sup>TM</sup> is FREEDOM HATING BIGOT.
 
Re: Re: First

WHY I FIND BADNARIK IMPORTANT



I research crank legal claims and politics as a hobby. Badnarik is a good source of both. In fact he is sort of a living ideological fossil record in that he connects the body of conspiracy theory known as "Common Law Theory" to the modern LP. This was a non-racist offshoot of the "Posse Comitatus" ideology.

Common to this is distrust of all but local authority, which dovetails nicely with libertarianism for the most part. Where this ideology gets weird is its "hidden history" component, the running but vague obsession that "the true history of the United States--and thus the true laws, the true obligations of citizens, the true government--had been hidden from the American citizen by a massive, long-lasting conspiracy." http://www.militia-watchdog.org/common.asp

Often, proponents label the legal aspect of this ideology as being "common law," an interesting tactic as there is of course such a thing as common law.
The term "common law" is itself common, but most people do not know exactly what it means. Its meaning, though, is pretty simple: it refers to unwritten, judge-made law (as opposed to written, or statutory, law).
...
Posse ideology, however, places a far different meaning and reliance on common law. Though there are many different strains and theories of Posse common law, a common thread that runs through most of them is that the common law is a separate, parallel legal/judicial system, one independent from and not subordinate to statutory or written law.

(Same site as above)

While Badnarik is not a full blown theorist of this stripe, the influence of this ideology on his thinking is quite obvious. One example is that he believes that the income tax has no legal basis and has been enforced by little more than conspiracy.

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A quote from Gene Chapman, who was once listed as a Badnarik adviser. May still be for that matter:

At the age of 5, my mother signed me up for a Social Security card. My understanding is that this was the act that unbeknownst to her sold me into slavery to the Untied States Government. The Declaration of Independence asserts that my right to liberty is something that cannot be given away, especially by another. It is "unalienable." And so I am a free Christian in America who cannot be a slave under any circumstances. My only question is, "Will I be forced to die for the freedom God has bestowed upon me before the Government comes to its senses?"

"Being listed in the system" is often as aspect of Posse style "common law" theory in that some posit that this makes one collateral on a federal reserve loan and thus the property of the Government. I ran across this sort of thinking in context of someone insisting that if you ever put your name in capitial letters on a legal document that this is creating a "legal fiction" of yourself ...

Legally, you are considered a slave or indentured servant to the various Federal, State and local governments via your STATE issued and created Birth Certificate in the name of your full caps person. The reason this Birth Certificate was issued is so that -exclusively - they hold the title of birth to your legal person. This is compounded further when one voluntarily obtains a driver's license or a Social Security Identification number. They own even your personal and private life through your STATE issued marriage certificate issued in the names of legal persons. You have no Rights in birth, marriage, or even death. They hold the sovereign right to all legal fiction titles they have created.

This means that the bankrupt corporate U.S. can guarantee to the purchasers of their securities the lifetime labor and tax revenues of all Americans as collateral for payment. They simply do this by converting the lawful name into a legal person. Cujusque rei potissima pars principium est-- The principal part of everything is in the beginning.

I discussed this in this thread


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Back to Badnarik himself, his book titled It's Good to Be King.

Page 21: Common law marriages are valid in all 50 states...because common law is the highest law jurisdiction in America.

(emphesis mine)

Page 67: It is proposed that there are distinct courts of common law and statute law jurisdiction.

Page 99: ‘I interpret that to mean that anyone with an ‘Esquire’ after their name, such as lawyers and attorneys, are forbidden from holding public office.’

(This is a seeming reference to the "missing 13th amendment" which would forbit those with titles of nobility from holding public office. This was never ratified nor was it intended to apply to lawyers. However, there is a body of conspiracy theory that claims it was ratified and also it was to ban lawyers from office.)


To be clear, Badnarik is not a full blown proponent as far as I can tell, but he does show quite a bit of influence from that direction.

It has been a running hypothesis of mine that the Libertarian Party line is moving towards a combination of libertarian principles and the remnants of Posse style common law theory. Badnarik seems an important data point as to this.

Which also explains why while I'm usually sympathetic to libertarianism I have little more than scorn for the Libertarian Party. This kind of Posse style "common law is a seperate jurisdiction" garbage is on par with homeopathy.
 
Re: Re: Re: First

LegalPenguin said:
Which also explains why while I'm usually sympathetic to libertarianism I have little more than scorn for the Libertarian Party. This kind of Posse style "common law is a seperate jurisdiction" garbage is on par with homeopathy.
LP, my feelings exactly. I used to think I was a Libertarian (big L) but have since come to my senses after being exposed to the Shanek wing (nukes for everyone!) of the party. :p
 
In no way making fun of LP's excellent post, the reason I find Badnarik important* is because he provides an opportunity to cover a smorgasbord of topics pertaining to human nature, such as zealotry and megalomania, topped with a generous portion of whacked out buffoonery, adorned with an under-achieving garnish, and served in self-aggrandizing style. (Or something like that.)

*fun is important
 
LP, your post is quite interesting and informative.

I am not involved in the LP myself--I am wary of any political group--I dislike both "main" parties a lot, I don't trust the LP because I'm suspicious of economic knowledge because it is almost impossible to experiment to isolate causality and the LP's economic stances are not exactly mainstream. I don't know what is right, and anyway, I find most people--even if they agree with me-- to have superficial understandings of topics they feel passionately about (in my experience most people do not take the time to debate and research things--libertarian or not; atheist or not...) Basically, I am wary of joining the LP simply because of the same reason I would never join an atheist organization.

(There is also the fact that those who are libertarians are already non-conformist on political opinions; and I think it's likely that many are non-conformist in many other opinions in a bad way, like Badnarik. Remember, I am a pessimist and an elitist of sorts. To say the LP is full of loons is probably somewhat true; all third, smaller parties will probably end up that way simply because those who think differently, well, think differently)
 
Re: Re: Re: Apologia for a nut

The Central Scrutinizer said:
I believe the official term in ShanekWorld<sup>TM</sup> is FREEDOM HATING BIGOT.

The term must be screamed at the top of your lungs.
 
Sushi said:
To be fair, a lot of the initial "BADNARIK IS NUTS LOL" wasn't exactly fair, mostly just libertarian bashing, but this is probably a tad bit more warranted.
Saying that Badnarik is nuts was always fair, initially and now.

Sushi said:
This still is somewhat libertarian bashing, though, of course, since if this was a "normal person" (i.e. didn't subscribe to political beliefs you hate) you'd probably feel sorry for them for lacking in rationality instead of making fun of them (gee, I thought this site was about getting people to "see the light" and become skeptical, not bashing those who aren't...).
I do feel a bit sorry for him, but that doesn't change the fact that he's hilarious. There are threads dedicated to making fun of other public maniacs. Perhaps Badnarik is targeted more than others of similar peripheral importance, but they probably don't have as vocal supporters on the board as Badnarik has in the form of Shanek.

Also, Badnarik was pretty much completely silent on anything even nearing this ballpark during the nomination; you cannot blame the LP necessarily for that.
Of course we can, Badnarik did apparently make some attempt to hide his more colourful opinions when he was campaigning for president, but if a bunch of random internet poster as us can find them, then The Libertarian party should be able to also. Electing him is proof that they either don't care, the other candidates were even worse, or such mind-boggling negligence that I have trouble crediting it. If you'd like I could easily find examples of insanities he's uttered before the Libertarian party picked him.

And, to be fair again, currently elected politicians aren't the brightest lightbulbs either. Tony Blair is apparently pro-new agey BS remedies. I'm sure looking through Randi's commentary you'll occasionally find mentions of crap being sponsored by the government as well. And most American politicians are deeply religious (or at least pretend to be) Christians.
If you'll notice we frequently see threads complaining about the newest insanity from the religious right. As for Tony Blair I don't know anything about his opinions about New Age, but I doubt he's said anything as insane as what badnarik does.

I don't mean to downplay any wackery--I'm not really very tolerant of this sort of idiocy myself--but at least his political beliefs do not allow him to try to codify or promote any of this crap into law or policy. But yeah, with this knowledge, not my ideal candidate for president either.
What people's political beliefs allow then to, and what they actually do when in power can be two quite different things. Badnarik says he wants to destroy the UN building, apparently without compensation, which is certainly blatantly at odds with Libertarianism as I understand it (property rights you know).
 
Re: First

billydkid said:
First of all, no, he is not the leader of the either the Libertarians or the libertarians. Secondly, why is it of any particular concern to you what Michael Badnarik says? You are trying to discredit libertarians (and their whacky notions that liberty is good and that entrusting large amounts of power to some people over the lives of others is bad) because Michael Badnarik says some nutty things. Mind you, I think I have mentioned this 70 or 80 times - Badnarik is not in a position of any kind of authority. He is not President or Secretary of Defense of Attorney General. He can not send people to die in Iraq (nor would he ever believe he the legitimate authority to do so in such a war even if he were President), so it doesn't matter what he says.

I am curious why anyone would feel inclined to feel all hot and sweaty over what Badnarik says when they actually have and have had people in these positions of power who hold truly scarey views and say equally nutty things. You've got a President who believes that he is doing God's will and helping to expedite the fulfilment of bible prophecy. You've got John Ashcroft who thinks he is the right hand of God. You've got leaders who believe we're engaged in a holy war where our god is better than your god because our god is real and your's is an idol. You've got a President who thinks ID should be taught as an alternative theory in science class and you're worried about what Badnarik thinks?

Badarik is nobody. He carried the banner for the Libertarians party last go round. This a purely figurehead position and I have to hand it to anyone willing to sacrifice so much while gaining nothing just to promote the parties principles. When we are in danger of actually electing a libertarian then it might make sense to fret about every little thing he says. I just don't get this tilting at windmills thing and this desperate vendetta to find any angle to try to discredit libertarians. You don't like libertarian principles, fine. Discuss the ways in which you find liberty offensive and authoritarianism comforting. Debate the principles. Show where they break down. Tell me why you think the founders of the nation were wrongheaded. But it is not relevant to anything whether Badnarik is the biggest dickhead in the world. Fine, I agree, he is a total whack. I don't even. But it is simply a way to avoid actually considering or discussing the ideas.
The Libertarian party did make him your presidential candidate, and whether you like it or not that reflects on the party, just like the Democrats and Republicans choice of Presidential candidates. You're correct however in saying that this doesn't reflect on the ideology as such, and I doubt I've ever said it did. If I have however I'd like to use this opportunity to retract that. I even have a high degree of respect for fx Randfan who identifies himself as libertarian. I do however consider libertarianism taken to the extreme that the Libertarian party does, to be wacky on it's own merits, something that I've made the case for several times. If you'd like to make a thread about it or would like me to make one, I can explain exactly why I consider extreme libertarianism deeply flawed. I'll Be happy to do so without any reference to Badnarik, or any other specific individual within the Libertarian party.
 

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