evildave
Unregistered
E
woodguard said:A skeptic would learn to pray two seconds before the bus hit them.
But would a skeptic buy a lottery ticket ?
Yes, and all people want a taco when they die.
And no, the odds indicate I'm 16x more likely to be struck by lightning, and I don't take the comparably "sensible" precaution of walking around in an anti-lightning suit to protect myself from probable death/disability, so why bother discarding dollars?
Sherlock Holmes said:
Allow me to remind you, Sir Holmes that aknowledging the fact that we are just humans and not super humans and there are times that some of us need to refer to a superior power than ours,is the most skeptical approach to life...especially these days, that it seems that Pure Reason has triumphed.
At least this is how I pray.
kyuudousha
Unregistered
K
Is it realistic that skeptics should pray?
Personally, I have always thought that praying was a sort of question-and-answer period between one and God -- the catch being that the answers were wholly subjective, no matter how direct the questions.
Example: one could pray about whether or not he should take a new job, and then, the next day, he sees a news story reporting that the company that offered him a job has just filed for bankruptcy (sic?). Is that an answer to a prayer, or is it just the way things turned out?
And the fact that the entire weekend was sunny but I couldn't enjoy it because I was at work the whole time, and that today, my day off, it's cloudy -- does that mean that somebody's out to get me, or simply that the contrast makes the situation seem like more than a mere coincidence?
Or the classic "street light" phenomenon: people don't take in to account all of the thousands of street lights that DON'T turn off when they pass by. People pay attention to only the ones that do. People make a big deal out of it, but statistically, it almost never happens, right? People are looking for meaning in it.
So, would it be realistic to expect a skeptic -- one who believes in proof and objective fact rather than anecdote and subjective interpretation of fact -- to offer a prayer, and then go around looking for facts that he can interpret as answers? Would it be realistic to expect a skeptic to twist something ambiguous into something meaningful to satisfy a need?
Honestly, I don't think so.
Personally, I have always thought that praying was a sort of question-and-answer period between one and God -- the catch being that the answers were wholly subjective, no matter how direct the questions.
Example: one could pray about whether or not he should take a new job, and then, the next day, he sees a news story reporting that the company that offered him a job has just filed for bankruptcy (sic?). Is that an answer to a prayer, or is it just the way things turned out?
And the fact that the entire weekend was sunny but I couldn't enjoy it because I was at work the whole time, and that today, my day off, it's cloudy -- does that mean that somebody's out to get me, or simply that the contrast makes the situation seem like more than a mere coincidence?
Or the classic "street light" phenomenon: people don't take in to account all of the thousands of street lights that DON'T turn off when they pass by. People pay attention to only the ones that do. People make a big deal out of it, but statistically, it almost never happens, right? People are looking for meaning in it.
So, would it be realistic to expect a skeptic -- one who believes in proof and objective fact rather than anecdote and subjective interpretation of fact -- to offer a prayer, and then go around looking for facts that he can interpret as answers? Would it be realistic to expect a skeptic to twist something ambiguous into something meaningful to satisfy a need?
Honestly, I don't think so.
Guest
Unregistered
G
Dear Cleopatra,
Right, and I personally have no problem with prayer.
I am speaking some of the skeptics who would say something like prayer is bunk, woo-woo, irrational, medieval thinking, dangerous, worthless, etc., and who would conclude that prayer is definitely not an activity a real skeptic would participate in.
I've read and heard similar arguments on this board, on others, and in real life.
Sincerely,
S. H.
Right, and I personally have no problem with prayer.
I am speaking some of the skeptics who would say something like prayer is bunk, woo-woo, irrational, medieval thinking, dangerous, worthless, etc., and who would conclude that prayer is definitely not an activity a real skeptic would participate in.
I've read and heard similar arguments on this board, on others, and in real life.
Sincerely,
S. H.
Guest
Unregistered
G
jimmygun said:
Obviously they did.....read the week`s commentary.
Skeptical Greg
Agave Wine Connoisseur
Re: Is it realistic that skeptics should pray?
Nice contribution.. Look forward to seeing more from you..
Welcome to JREF Forums..
kyuudousha said:
Nice contribution.. Look forward to seeing more from you..
Welcome to JREF Forums..
Hello kyuudousha and welcome on board.kyuudousha said:
No. I don't think that a prayer is what you describe.
In many religions ( allow me to talk about the dogmas of Christianity that I have studied and know well ) it's clear that by praying you don't ask a favour or you don't pose a question but you try to tune your soul to a "superior" power to the existence of some us, believe.
Maybe by praying we try to tune to the superior state of mind that hides in every single one of us. The important is that you refer to someone or something that is out of you...
Personally in my prayers, I ask " God" to help me control myself in order not take the "easy way" ( whatever this might be : succumb to anger, to hatred , to injustice).I also ask to help me realize that however good I am in some things ( my work for example) I have my own limits.
Praying saves me from hubris which always brings nemesis in her turn
I don't ask God to show me which is the right way, deep in my heart, I know the right way, I only ask for patience and the power to achieve this state of mind I consider appropriate.
Dear Sherlock.
I have observed too that there are people who confuse scepticism with the spirit of the arena...that's why I keep them in a safe distance and I try not to engage myself in discussions with such persons, because otherwise, I will need to pray to God more than once to help me keep my mouth shut ...
kyuudousha
Unregistered
K
Just a clarification: I don't think that prayer is a REAL-TIME Q&A with God. Not like, I guess, asking God a question and then waiting for an object in your room to begin to glow or something. I guess more like the, "please show me a sign" sort of idea, where it depends on the person offering the prayer to recognize the signs when they appear. I don't think a skeptic can do this.
After thinking a little more deeply into the issue, and from reading some posts here, I think that it might be possible for skeptics to pray in the meditiational sense.
I consider myself to be a skeptic, and an atheist (but if God ever shows up on my doorstep and says, "hey, what gives?", I'll probably change my mind). But I do believe that meditation can be beneficial. Not really in the form of asking a deity for strength or anything, although I see how it can be beneficial. I think that a skeptic, OR a non-theist (not that they're always the same thing), or anybody for that matter can get a lot of benefit from simply "stepping back" from the world, finding a quiet place, and just relaxing, taking the time to untie the knots in the brain (noggin knots?). The human brain is amazing like that. I think maybe the inspiration we need sometimes is right inside ourselves.
Personally, I prefer this approach as it has helped me in the past, and I feel as though I'm taking a more active role in my own life, rather than waiting to receive divine inspiration or strength.
After thinking a little more deeply into the issue, and from reading some posts here, I think that it might be possible for skeptics to pray in the meditiational sense.
I consider myself to be a skeptic, and an atheist (but if God ever shows up on my doorstep and says, "hey, what gives?", I'll probably change my mind). But I do believe that meditation can be beneficial. Not really in the form of asking a deity for strength or anything, although I see how it can be beneficial. I think that a skeptic, OR a non-theist (not that they're always the same thing), or anybody for that matter can get a lot of benefit from simply "stepping back" from the world, finding a quiet place, and just relaxing, taking the time to untie the knots in the brain (noggin knots?). The human brain is amazing like that. I think maybe the inspiration we need sometimes is right inside ourselves.
Personally, I prefer this approach as it has helped me in the past, and I feel as though I'm taking a more active role in my own life, rather than waiting to receive divine inspiration or strength.
Very nice post
I couldn't help wondering where do you come from ( Hey! No need for an answer! It was just me, wondering...)
No, skeptics who pray, don't ask for a sign although ... to be very honest there are moments of dispair you wish you had a sign... but generally you don't ask for such things.
After all , when you are in need for signs, all you have to do, is to bring to your mind this wise poem of this wise Greek who was advising that " There is not way to meet ( during the journey of life) the Lestrygonians and the Cyclops if you don't carry them in your soul..."
I think that by praying ,you admit that you are not superman and makes you more compasionate to other humans.
Also, I have observed that while you grow-up the approach towards praying changes. The more you grow-up the more you know why you do it but suprisingly enough, you do it more often as time passes...
C.
I couldn't help wondering where do you come from ( Hey! No need for an answer! It was just me, wondering...)
No, skeptics who pray, don't ask for a sign although ... to be very honest there are moments of dispair you wish you had a sign... but generally you don't ask for such things.
After all , when you are in need for signs, all you have to do, is to bring to your mind this wise poem of this wise Greek who was advising that " There is not way to meet ( during the journey of life) the Lestrygonians and the Cyclops if you don't carry them in your soul..."
I think that by praying ,you admit that you are not superman and makes you more compasionate to other humans.
Also, I have observed that while you grow-up the approach towards praying changes. The more you grow-up the more you know why you do it but suprisingly enough, you do it more often as time passes...
C.