How should Israel kill men in wheelchairs?

[zenith-nadir]

Re: Re: How should Israel kill men in wheelchairs?

You see, even Eichmann got a trial before his execution....

Had Eichmann been caught in Allied crosshairs while travelling between his concentration camps there wouldn't have been any trial.

 

[Ed]

Re: Re: How should Israel kill men in wheelchairs?

Contrary to my reading habits in this forum I read only the opening post this time.

An alternative way to the assassination is to kidnap the person on the wheel chair and bring him to a Court of Law. If you have enough ( that means documented reasons) to assassinate him that means that you can prove his guilt in a Court of Law too.

You see, even Eichmann got a trial before his execution....

So the idea is to put even more people in harms way to actually remove the person? Like cops in a big city?
You go first.

 

[Cleopatra]

Re: Re: Re: How should Israel kill men in wheelchairs?

Had Eichmann been caught in Allied crosshairs while travelling between his concentration camps there wouldn't have been any trial.

I believe that the analogy is falsed and not only that but you give the enemy more credit that he deserves since you kind of admit that you cannot control even your occupied territories.
I avoided to get into that discussion...

You see, during WWII , while the Germans have occupied Crete , a handful of Greek guerillas leaded by a British officer ( Sir Patrick Leigh-Fermor) managed to capture and kidnap in a German camp a chief general of the Nazis( General Kraipe) under circumstances that even films fail to describe.

If you cannot kindnap or arrest somebody for a crime and bring him to court then you try harder and you let him live until you are in the position to do the only decent thing among civilized nations; bring a criminal to trial.

 

[Cleopatra]

Re: Re: Re: How should Israel kill men in wheelchairs?

So the idea is to put even more people in harms way to actually remove the person? Like cops in a big city?
You go first.

You cannot compare the territories where Hamas is hiding( and are under the Israeli Occupation BTW...) with the cities of countries that are not in a war. It's a false analogy and it doesn't do any good to Israel.

 

[zenith-nadir]

Re: Re: Re: Re: How should Israel kill men in wheelchairs?

I believe that the analogy is false

Why? The Allies bombed the hell out of many top German officers. Eichmann just wasn't one of them.

...not only that but you give the enemy more credit that he deserves since you kind of admit that you cannot control even your occupied territories.

Israel cannot control the territories 100%...if it could there would be no problems in Gaza and the West Bank today.

You see, during WWII , while the Germans have occupied Crete , a handful of Greek guerillas leaded by a British officer ( Sir Patrick Leigh-Fermor) managed to capture and kidnap in a German camp a chief general of the Nazis( General Kraipe) under circumstances that even films fail to describe.

Sometimes it is better to capture an enemy for intel that blow him up and lose that resource.

If you cannot kindnap or arrest somebody for a crime and bring him to court then you try harder and you let him live until you are in the position to do the only decent thing among civilized nations; bring a criminal to trial.

That is unless he is sending his subordinates endlessly to blow up your citizens...then I am afraid waiting for some legal moral high ground to open up is irresponsible.

 

[Frank Newgent]

Just roll 'em off the Golan Heights. Backed over my wife with this rig last February, you know. Hey, how far's Israel?

 

[Skeptic]

I'd be interested to see your list of people who can and can't be murdered in an extra-judicial killing, though.

"Extra-judicial killing" = "jews fighting back".

 

[Mycroft]

Originally posted by Cleopatra
I believe that the analogy is falsed and not only that but you give the enemy more credit that he deserves since you kind of admit that you cannot control even your occupied territories.
I avoided to get into that discussion...

Who claims Israel controls the territories? If they did, there would be no terrorism.

Originally posted by Cleopatra
You see, during WWII , while the Germans have occupied Crete , a handful of Greek guerillas leaded by a British officer ( Sir Patrick Leigh-Fermor) managed to capture and kidnap in a German camp a chief general of the Nazis( General Kraipe) under circumstances that even films fail to describe.

Clearly an amazing and inspirational story...but also a unique event. It doesn't sound like something that can reasonably be replicated every day.

Originally posted by Cleopatra
If you cannot kindnap or arrest somebody for a crime and bring him to court then you try harder and you let him live until you are in the position to do the only decent thing among civilized nations; bring a criminal to trial.

That's how the police behaves with criminals, it's not how warriors behave with the enemies of their country.

 

[CBL4]

I dislike the death of innocent civilians even if an evil man is the target but it needs to be considered on a case by case basis.

1) How evil is the man?
2) How many innocent are likely to die?
3) What are the alternatives? (Capture or other assasination techniques.)
4) How innocent are the civilians? (If the people killed were there only because Yassin was there, then I lack sympathy.)

CBL

 

[WildCat]

Which kinda makes your comparison invalid. Which was my point.

I'd be interested to see your list of people who can and can't be murdered in an extra-judicial killing, though. I suspect people who have struck out at the USA or Israel will be on it, and the likes of Oliver North and Ronald Reagan, who supported terrorist organisations in Central America, won't be.

A court order is needed to kill the enemy in times of war? Interesting POV, but ridiculous.

I'm sure if the Sandinistas had the chance, they would have killed Reagan and Ollie.

 

[Earthborn]

I voted the last option, because I think you all are completely missing the point. Let me explain.

There are several types of leaders:

Type 1 leaders are commanders, people who actually organise things, command people. They can tell people what to do and those people will do it.

If you assassinate a type 1 leader of an organisation, that organisation will be severely damaged, because the person who makes it work will be dead. A power vacuum may arise that could cause tensions within the organisation and the organisation may split. Or the organisation will find a new leader and become angry at you.

Type 2 leaders are moral or spiritual leaders. They don't organise things, they inspire people. They provide the philosophical ideas of a movement. People accept them as leaders because such leaders tell them things that they can relate with, that resonates with what they think they see around them. By providing a philosophical framework that includes apperent solutions to the problems people face, people will seek those solutions. A type 2 leader does not tell people what to do, they tell them what to think. And as long as he is respected, people will believe what he says.

If you assassinate a type 2 leader, the ideas he stands for don't go away. People will still believe them. The only thing you achieve with killing a moral leader is to make it impossible for him to ever make a mistake that could cause people to lose respect for him. The prestige he earned in life will be frozen in time, because he can longer do anything that causes people to lose respect for him.

When you are dealing with a deaf-blind paraplegic I think it is fairly obvious that he is a type 2 leader. He can no longer read maps, order bombs or evaluate the quality of them. He can no longer physically lead an organisation. He can only give speeches to inspire people to do things he wants them to do. Killing him only strengthens the ideas of the people who believed in him, and there is nothing he can do or say now that makes people lose faith in him.

 

[kimiko]

Yeah, but snipers are not always available when a target presents itself. It would be nice if you always had the right specialist with the right equipment wherever you needed them, but the real world doesn't work that way.

That's not how assasinations work generally. They will send specific people after the target, not wait for him to show up.

 

[Phrost]

When the Palestinians decide to kill a man in a wheelchair, the preferred method is to shoot him and toss him off a large ship. It seems only fair for the Israelis to do the same.

Zing!

 

[Ian Osborne]

A court order is needed to kill the enemy in times of war? Interesting POV, but ridiculous.

What war? Terrorists are criminals, not soldiers, and you give them too much credit by calling the conflict a war.

I'm sure if the Sandinistas had the chance, they would have killed Reagan and Ollie.

And you'd be okay with that, presumably?

 

[zenith-nadir]

What war? Terrorists are criminals, not soldiers, and you give them too much credit by calling the conflict a war.

It is a war that has been going on between the Arab world and Israel since the invasion of Israel on May 15th 1948 by the Arab armies of Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Iraq, Saudi Arabia and Lebanon. This war has continued until the Arab world realized that it had to change tactics from conventional warfare - it kept losing - to using guerilla groups as surrogates. The only Arab countries on earth that have officially signed peace treaties with Israel are Egypt and Jordan, technically all the others Arab nations are still at war with Israel. Who do you think supports, finances and gives safe haven to these groups Ian?

Originally posted by Earthborn
When you are dealing with a deaf-blind paraplegic I think it is fairly obvious that he is a type 2 leader. He can no longer read maps, order bombs or evaluate the quality of them. He can no longer physically lead an organisation.

Yassin has been in a wheelchair since he was 12 years old Earthborn and that never stopped him from A) establishing a terrorist organization, B) championing the annihilation of Israel and C) inventing the suicide bomber. So please stop with the excuses why he was inneffective because of his disability... it is a cop out and frankly insulting to people with disabilities. Yassin knew exactly what he was doing and his followers knew exactly what he stood for and what he required of them.

 

[Skeptic]

What war? Terrorists are criminals, not soldiers,

Terrorists are combatants who refuse to obey by the minimal rules that would allow them the geneva convention protection, such as wearing uniform, not targeting civilians, etc.

This means they have less, not more, rights than soldiers. No fair getting the extra rights of a criminal defendant--far greater than that of a combatant--merely by REFUSING to obey by the laws combatants must obey.

On your distorted view, if I am an enemy soldier that just captured a Platoon of your soldiers, then I CAN be legally killed without trial to free them if you can manage it, but if I am a terorrist who just captured a busload of schoolchildren, I am suddenly a "criminal", so I cannot be "targeted" by "extra-judicial execution"--at least if I already killed all the children and went back home.

 

[Mycroft]

Type 1 leaders are commanders, people who actually organise things, command people. They can tell people what to do and those people will do it...

When you are dealing with a deaf-blind paraplegic I think it is fairly obvious that he is a type 2 leader.

I don't follow this at all. That he was able to become a leader shows that he was able to overcome his disabilities. There is no reason why he can't organize things, command people and tell them what to do.

 

[BPSCG]

The only thing you achieve with killing a moral leader is to make it impossible for him to ever make a mistake that could cause people to lose respect for him. The prestige he earned in life will be frozen in time, because he can longer do anything that causes people to lose respect for him.

News flash: People who still respect someone who's established a terrorist organization and invented the concept of the suicide bomber are probably not going to lose respect for him no matter what he does.

 

[BPSCG]

That he was able to become a leader shows that he was able to overcome his disabilities.

Then he's not "disabled." He was certainly severely handicapped, but not disabled.

 

[Cleopatra]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: How should Israel kill men in wheelchairs?

Why? The Allies bombed the hell out of many top German officers.

But they didn't bomb the camps...

Israel cannot control the territories 100%...if it could there would be no problems in Gaza and the West Bank today.

These territories are under the Palestinian administration at lease typically but in reality we know that Israel is the occupying force , IDF can promenade everywhere they want.

That is unless he is sending his subordinates endlessly to blow up your citizens...then I am afraid waiting for some legal moral high ground to open up is irresponsible.

The suicide bombings didn't stop and we created a hero for them. You see it's not just a matter of morality it's a demonstration of real power. Justice vigilante doesn't constitute any power. By exercizing it you play in your enemy's territory not to mention that in terms of semantics blowing a man on a wheel chair was a failure like a concept.

Also my point was tad different. It seems to me that back in the 60ies Israel was a different state, it was a real land that belonged to the hands of its people. People worked for the land, they were not scared and they knew how to punish those who were fooling aroung with them, it seems to me that modern Israelis have turned into scared puppies from the brave and proud people they were.

Our parents were proud and brave people and that's why they managed to survive in the most hostile corner of earth. Every time I need to turn to myself for strength, I think of my family and our people and the blood in me boils in pride.This might sound racist-- I don't care- but Israelis are not whining loosers that believe in kishmet they are fighters. Israel should have handled than in a different way and bring this scum to court instead of justifying those who accuse Israel for functioning under the Mosaic Law.

This was my point.